Renewable energy isn't that expensive

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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Seems like storage is what you need to do if you have a surplus instead of giving it away. But that is not the game plan for the older established power generators. Time will change things. Cost will come down or the utilities as they are will disappear.


:sigh:

and as I keep pointing out, the levelised cost of storage of current technologies is 25c/KWh round trip for even free electricity.

The biggest planned one in Ca would keep the lights on for 9 seconds.

Then you need 4,000MW of solar or wind to replace 1,000MW of coal/nukes/big hydro.
:sigh: You negative nellies will never move forward if all you see is the past. Do batteries cost the same today as five years ago?

There will be the day when centralized power production will be history.
 
I don't think battery storage will be the future. It takes too much batteries to store solar power for home. If batteries get this cheap all gasoline cars will be replaced with battery cars, and then we don't have to worry about duck curve anymore if you charge market rate base on the grid load.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
:sigh: You negative nellies will never move forward if all you see is the past. Do batteries cost the same today as five years ago?

There will be the day when centralized power production will be history.


Mate, you claim to be in the industry, but are apparently completely naive to it, and swallow the "big bad industry" mantra that certain groups spout.

First fact -d o you not acknowledge that you need 4,000MW of solar nameplate to get the same 24 hour production as 1,000MW thermal ?

Simple physics...if we get you across THAT line, we can move onto storage.
 
The efficiency of electrical generation have just stated. Gone are the days of just running it wide open and polluting. The future will have much more powerful panels and much cheaper storage; better wind generation and more efficient energy transmission.

Many current renewable resources are nearing their half life. Replacements will be twice as efficient. To be making tomorrows decisions based on current products is foolish. What other industry would do that?
 
Back to the absolute basics...again...

Originally Posted By: Shannow

First fact - do you not acknowledge that you need 4,000MW of solar nameplate to get the same 24 hour production as 1,000MW thermal ?

Simple physics...if we get you across THAT line, we can move onto storage.


If it's 4,000Mw of today's mid 20s solar cells, or some mid 40 future project...do you at least acknowledge that 4,000MW is needed to replace 1,000MW thermal ?

Simple question, simple answer.


As to the lifecycle, what's happening with these things at end of life ?
 
Yes it does take more renewable to replace thermal. But electrical use is generally headed down.

End of life is a scrappers dream. Both windmills and solar cells have high scrap values. In my local county the regulations require a bond to be put up for removal.
 
Yeah, big demand for 50 tonne concrete blocks I hear...wouldn't think you'd need a bond if they were so in demand and popular.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Yeah, big demand for 50 tonne concrete blocks I hear...wouldn't think you'd need a bond if they were so in demand and popular.
Around here discarded concrete is quite useful and you will pay for it usually.

They are adding onto a windfarm not far from me. The high line towers have an 8'x20' footing I would guess.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Seems like storage is what you need to do if you have a surplus instead of giving it away. But that is not the game plan for the older established power generators. Time will change things. Cost will come down or the utilities as they are will disappear.



Yes, but you'd need massive storage. If you have 1,000 wind turbines all come on-line at once during a period of low demand, you need enough storage to handle that. That is a LOT of storage.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I agree its far from perfect now, but I imagine a significant chunk of the cost on the peaks and on the oversupply is from fat contracts as well... A government would rather spend lots of tax dollars than play chicken with utility companies and get a brown out...

What the cheap solar panels potentially cheap home power storage do, is take away the barriers to entry for anyone to participate in the power market.
I believe that's the plan with huge battery power production in the "gigafactory". If you distribute many gigawatt hours of battery storage into the grid, most of the issues with over and under supply will disappear. A home battery array may be charging from, or discharging into the grid based on its charge level and the current pricing level, and that might change every 5 minutes at times...
Or in a decade or two, home power generation will be the norm? In rough numbers, going off grid to power my home and an electric car doesn't seem to cost much more than buying power. Another couple years and I can only see it getting cheaper.


The problem of course is the rates we pay. Without the global adjustment, solar would appear far less viable. The nukes are cheap to operate and have been paid for for a long time. They also make up the vast majority of our baseload. Expensive home battery arrays and rooftop panels garner appeal when rates are what they are. But they shouldn't be (what they are). We are paying for those fat contracts via our rates, that's what the Global Adjustment IS. That's why the massive change in prices exists between 2006 and now.

And in Ontario, HydroONE is still mostly owned by the province. They'd be playing chicken with themselves. The problem is, as you've noted, and I touched on earlier, the contracts with the private generators for wind and solar. They (the contracts) were designed to favour the contract holder, not the consumer or utility.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I don't think battery storage will be the future. It takes too much batteries to store solar power for home. If batteries get this cheap all gasoline cars will be replaced with battery cars, and then we don't have to worry about duck curve anymore if you charge market rate base on the grid load.


No, then you have to worry about greater baseload demand over the night when all the cars are charging and the sun isn't shining. That will further drive up rates and screw up the whole rate profile.
 
As was pointed out, the reason for the bond is precisely because these things aren't worth much of anything when done. If the wind or solar developer walks away after building them, the costs of decomissioning and removing the facility are what the bond covers. Not to say there is no recycling of materials done, but it is nowhere near the cost of demolition and restoration...

Going through the same exercise with the construction of solar gardens in this area...
 
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
As was pointed out, the reason for the bond is precisely because these things aren't worth much of anything when done.


I thought that the statement was that they are a "scrappers dream"...that and worthless are two pretty strong extremes.

US solar cell recycling is predicted to be $12B p.a. in 20 years time...who's paying for that ?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Seems like storage is what you need to do if you have a surplus instead of giving it away. But that is not the game plan for the older established power generators. Time will change things. Cost will come down or the utilities as they are will disappear.



Yes, but you'd need massive storage. If you have 1,000 wind turbines all come on-line at once during a period of low demand, you need enough storage to handle that. That is a LOT of storage.
Maybe not turn them on? I believe here the grid operators control them just like the coal and nat gas plants..
 
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
As was pointed out, the reason for the bond is precisely because these things aren't worth much of anything when done. If the wind or solar developer walks away after building them, the costs of decomissioning and removing the facility are what the bond covers. Not to say there is no recycling of materials done, but it is nowhere near the cost of demolition and restoration...

Going through the same exercise with the construction of solar gardens in this area...


Wind Decommissioning Costs — Lessons Learned

Quote:
Last month, EVA was hired by the Mountain Communities for Responsible Energy to evaluate a Decommissioning Cost Report prepared for the Beech Ridge Energy Project – a 124-turbine project proposed for Greenbrier County, West Virginia. The project wind developer (Invergy) had argued that the scrap value of the wind turbines would far exceed the cost to decommission the wind project and that therefore they should be responsible for bonding $2,500/turbine that would slowly escalate to $25,000/turbine by year 16.

EVA completed an independent estimate of the salvage value of the Beech Ridge Wind turbines. The applicant’s consultant estimated that its salvage value credit would reach $12.64 million ($101,900/turbine) in their decommissioning fund study based upon application of general scrap factors and prices. This scrap value credit would more than offset their estimated demo costs ($8.68 million: $70,000/turbine).

EVA contacted the major regional scrap yards directly and got current scrap prices for steel, copper and transport. From these data, EVA developed a Beech Ridge project–specific salvage credit estimate of only $2.63 million, i.e., $10.01 million less than the original applicant study. We uncovered several major flaws in the applicant study methodology and pricing. They not only used old scrap prices but failed to take into account that they would have to transport the scrap to a yard. In addition, to obtain the posted scrap price, they would need to break down the tower into 3-4 ft long pieces or else the quoted price would be significantly less. In addition, the copper materials must also have their insulation stripped and/or copper pieces separated to obtain their posted copper price. If not, their scrap value would be far less than the common posted price. Given the large drop in scrap prices this year (>40%), scrap value can no longer cover decommissioning costs.

EVA also compared the estimated demolition costs to another decommissioning report for another wind project developer that had contained detailed cost breakdowns. The other study estimated demo costs of $97K/turbine vs. $70K/turbine by Beech Ridge. The bottom line is that using the demolition costs from the other wind turbine project decommissioning study would translate to a Beech Ridge demo cost of $12.03 million, i.e., $3.35 million more the applicant’s $8.68 million estimate. (Note: In another very recent project I have just reviewed, the decommissioning costs were again severely underestimated by more than 50% by not taking into account recent crane rental rates, extremely low earth moving costs, and assuming high productivity rates (6 turbines/wk).)

The bottom line is that even if the permitting agency allows the salvage credit, the total net cost of decommissioning this project today would be $10.4 million ($83,900/turbine). Our analysis quantified the large scrap price and demo cost escalation risk being assumed by the local community. To protect the community, the permitting agency should require a bond of a minimum $100/K per turbine ($12.4 million) to capture demolition cost escalation risk. If the wind developer can convince the bonding company of the high salvage value, then they should be able to negotiate a lower rate for the bond. If they were right, there would be very little price difference for a larger $12+ million bond. Shift the risk to the bonding company. Let the developer and bonding company assume the price risk – not the community.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Seems like storage is what you need to do if you have a surplus instead of giving it away. But that is not the game plan for the older established power generators. Time will change things. Cost will come down or the utilities as they are will disappear.



Yes, but you'd need massive storage. If you have 1,000 wind turbines all come on-line at once during a period of low demand, you need enough storage to handle that. That is a LOT of storage.
Maybe not turn them on? I believe here the grid operators control them just like the coal and nat gas plants..


At least up here they are owned by private contractors. We pay them to turn them off/not produce, so we still get screwed.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Maybe not turn them on? I believe here the grid operators control them just like the coal and nat gas plants..


They aren't "schedulable" like coal and nat gas, as in you can't control the load.

But YES, they are turning them off when the wind blows.

Makes perfect sense to install them and turn them off doesn't it ?
 
When I went on a tour of the coal generator they told me the gird operators controlled the coal feed on the boilers. Seeing as most renewables don't require a long buildup to get up to power I don't see how turning them on and off would be bad. Rather seems like it is efficient grid management.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
When I went on a tour of the coal generator they told me the gird operators controlled the coal feed on the boilers. Seeing as most renewables don't require a long buildup to get up to power I don't see how turning them on and off would be bad. Rather seems like it is efficient grid management.



Well, one of our nukes (Bruce, which is the largest functioning nuclear facility in the world BTW with 8x CANDU's) actually dumps steam to the atmosphere instead of spinning a turbine with it because it is cheaper to dump that steam than it is to halt the wind turbines because of the rates at which each are compensated. There is something seriously wrong with that scenario. Bruce makes 7,276MW of power BTW, more than enough to run many European countries; probably a couple of them simultaneously.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
When I went on a tour of the coal generator they told me the gird operators controlled the coal feed on the boilers. Seeing as most renewables don't require a long buildup to get up to power I don't see how turning them on and off would be bad. Rather seems like it is efficient grid management.


OK, you buy a piece of "not that expensive" renewable energy plant (title of the thread), which has a capacity factor of 20%, then turn it off.

Yeah, REALLY inexpensive and efficient.

BTW, I've got a pretty good idea how coal works, and your operator tour guide gave you the most simplistic, dumbed down description.
 
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