Redline goes api sn+
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Originally Posted by OilUzer
What's the moly? Gone down?
I guess I'll repost for ya, blue label high performance popular redline went from old 880 moly numbers to somewhere around 550ppm, has been this way for at least 5 years maybe longer my first uoa was over 5 years ago and had this number and stayed steady through all the uoa's we have seen from many users, the new black bottle professional series has no moly according to thier spokesman.
What's the moly? Gone down?
I guess I'll repost for ya, blue label high performance popular redline went from old 880 moly numbers to somewhere around 550ppm, has been this way for at least 5 years maybe longer my first uoa was over 5 years ago and had this number and stayed steady through all the uoa's we have seen from many users, the new black bottle professional series has no moly according to thier spokesman.
Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by OilUzer
What's the moly? Gone down?
I guess I'll repost for ya, blue label high performance popular redline went from old 880 moly numbers to somewhere around 550ppm, has been this way for at least 5 years maybe longer my first uoa was over 5 years ago and had this number and stayed steady through all the uoa's we have seen from many users, the new black bottle professional series has no moly according to thier spokesman.
Thanks. 550 is still high. does no moly mean they use titanium or zddp instead?
Originally Posted by OilUzer
What's the moly? Gone down?
I guess I'll repost for ya, blue label high performance popular redline went from old 880 moly numbers to somewhere around 550ppm, has been this way for at least 5 years maybe longer my first uoa was over 5 years ago and had this number and stayed steady through all the uoa's we have seen from many users, the new black bottle professional series has no moly according to thier spokesman.
Thanks. 550 is still high. does no moly mean they use titanium or zddp instead?
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It would be interesting to know the oxidation numbers and relative amount of esters in some of the Ravenol formulations. Their literature states they are PAO based and in some grades contain esters to boot. I currently have Red Line in two vehicles but am changing over to Ravenol when i do their next sceduled oil change. I have already completed the changeover on one vehicle. The primary reason for this is the extremely robust specifications, as good as the Red Line white/blue bottle, coupled with manufacturer approvals. If Ravenol hadn't come around I would still be buying the Red Line. The proof to me is the many racing teams that use the Red Line versus other boutique manufacturers in engines that are treated brutally and cost an arm and a leg. i imagine that a race team owner/mechanic/engine builder must have some justification for using it say over supertech. Most of these fellas are pretty pragmatic and don't feed at the trough of hype.
Originally Posted by sloinker
It would be interesting to know the oxidation numbers and relative amount of esters in some of the Ravenol formulations. Their literature states they are PAO based and in some grades contain esters to boot. I currently have Red Line in two vehicles but am changing over to Ravenol when i do their next sceduled oil change. I have already completed the changeover on one vehicle. The primary reason for this is the extremely robust specifications, as good as the Red Line white/blue bottle, coupled with manufacturer approvals. If Ravenol hadn't come around I would still be buying the Red Line. The proof to me is the many racing teams that use the Red Line versus other boutique manufacturers in engines that are treated brutally and cost an arm and a leg. i imagine that a race team owner/mechanic/engine builder must have some justification for using it say over supertech. Most of these fellas are pretty pragmatic and don't feed at the trough of hype.
Couple of flaws in the logic because race teams use it. First the number one motor oil brand is Mobil One. Second a race engine is not used in a manner like a your passenger car engine. If the engine is reused it's getting mutiple oil changes and the OCI is very short.
It would be interesting to know the oxidation numbers and relative amount of esters in some of the Ravenol formulations. Their literature states they are PAO based and in some grades contain esters to boot. I currently have Red Line in two vehicles but am changing over to Ravenol when i do their next sceduled oil change. I have already completed the changeover on one vehicle. The primary reason for this is the extremely robust specifications, as good as the Red Line white/blue bottle, coupled with manufacturer approvals. If Ravenol hadn't come around I would still be buying the Red Line. The proof to me is the many racing teams that use the Red Line versus other boutique manufacturers in engines that are treated brutally and cost an arm and a leg. i imagine that a race team owner/mechanic/engine builder must have some justification for using it say over supertech. Most of these fellas are pretty pragmatic and don't feed at the trough of hype.
Couple of flaws in the logic because race teams use it. First the number one motor oil brand is Mobil One. Second a race engine is not used in a manner like a your passenger car engine. If the engine is reused it's getting mutiple oil changes and the OCI is very short.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Regarding the base oil in the Red Line High-Performance 5W-30, it's apparently roughly 82 - 87% PAO and 13 - 18% ester.
A recent MSDS showed < 90% PAO as a percentage of the base oil. Additives could take up to around 25%. So, it's mostly PAO. However, ester (POE) is not listed in MSDSs typically. So, the question remained how much ester is there in addition to the primary PAO base stock.
Oil-Club Russia got the FTIR oxidation number at 90%. Apparently, it's strongly correlated with the ester content in a VOA and 50% oxidation is roughly 7 - 10% ester. So, you are looking at about 13 - 18% ester, which makes sense. While that number seems small, it's bigger than for almost any motor oil, including the Motul oils marketed as being ester-based ("ester core"), which have around 5 - 7% ester (35% oxidation).
Surprisingly, the ester content in ILSAC varieties of Mobil 1 are very small, with the oxidation number being at 10%, so no more than about 1 - 2% of ester if any. European (ACEA) varieties of Mobil 1 such as FS 0W-40, ESP, and ESP X2 0W-20 show around 35% oxidation or 5 - 7% ester.
Amsoil Signature Series 0W-40 showed 60% oxidation number or more than 8 - 12% ester.
https://testoil.com/data-interpretation/fourier-transform-infrared-ftir/
"Oxidation mostly represents degradation of the fluid, but can also detect the presence of synthetic esters, which reveals some information regarding the base-stock formulation."
Now, here is the strange thing. The oxidation number Wear Check got for the TGMO 0W-20 SN sample I sent them in 2014 came out to be 68%. Does that mean that TGMO 0W-20 SN has 8 - 12% ester, similar to Amsoil Signature Series and only second to Red Line High-Performance? It would be remarkable if it did and it wasn't an artifact of WearCheck's FTIR algorithm.
Not a bad guesstimate.
Do AN's show up with an oxidation number in a VOA/UOA? Mobil tends to prefer ANs.
Regarding the base oil in the Red Line High-Performance 5W-30, it's apparently roughly 82 - 87% PAO and 13 - 18% ester.
A recent MSDS showed < 90% PAO as a percentage of the base oil. Additives could take up to around 25%. So, it's mostly PAO. However, ester (POE) is not listed in MSDSs typically. So, the question remained how much ester is there in addition to the primary PAO base stock.
Oil-Club Russia got the FTIR oxidation number at 90%. Apparently, it's strongly correlated with the ester content in a VOA and 50% oxidation is roughly 7 - 10% ester. So, you are looking at about 13 - 18% ester, which makes sense. While that number seems small, it's bigger than for almost any motor oil, including the Motul oils marketed as being ester-based ("ester core"), which have around 5 - 7% ester (35% oxidation).
Surprisingly, the ester content in ILSAC varieties of Mobil 1 are very small, with the oxidation number being at 10%, so no more than about 1 - 2% of ester if any. European (ACEA) varieties of Mobil 1 such as FS 0W-40, ESP, and ESP X2 0W-20 show around 35% oxidation or 5 - 7% ester.
Amsoil Signature Series 0W-40 showed 60% oxidation number or more than 8 - 12% ester.
https://testoil.com/data-interpretation/fourier-transform-infrared-ftir/
"Oxidation mostly represents degradation of the fluid, but can also detect the presence of synthetic esters, which reveals some information regarding the base-stock formulation."
Now, here is the strange thing. The oxidation number Wear Check got for the TGMO 0W-20 SN sample I sent them in 2014 came out to be 68%. Does that mean that TGMO 0W-20 SN has 8 - 12% ester, similar to Amsoil Signature Series and only second to Red Line High-Performance? It would be remarkable if it did and it wasn't an artifact of WearCheck's FTIR algorithm.
Not a bad guesstimate.
Do AN's show up with an oxidation number in a VOA/UOA? Mobil tends to prefer ANs.
Cool that they have a new HDEO 5w40 choice for consumers. Previously they only had 15w40.
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Originally Posted by buster
Not a bad guesstimate.
Do AN's show up with an oxidation number in a VOA/UOA? Mobil tends to prefer ANs.
Alkylated naphthalene (AN) doesn't show in the MSDS because it's not consider hazardous (similar to polyol ester [POE] in that sense) and I don't think it shows as an oxidation number either.
Have you ever got anything concrete about AN from the Mobil 1 tech support?
Not a bad guesstimate.
Do AN's show up with an oxidation number in a VOA/UOA? Mobil tends to prefer ANs.
Alkylated naphthalene (AN) doesn't show in the MSDS because it's not consider hazardous (similar to polyol ester [POE] in that sense) and I don't think it shows as an oxidation number either.
Have you ever got anything concrete about AN from the Mobil 1 tech support?
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Alkylated naphthalene (AN) doesn't show in the MSDS because it's not consider hazardous (similar to polyol ester [POE] in that sense) and I don't think it shows as an oxidation number either.
How do you know it is not required to be listed? There are MSDS for the compounds themselves.
Alkylated naphthalene (AN) doesn't show in the MSDS because it's not consider hazardous (similar to polyol ester [POE] in that sense) and I don't think it shows as an oxidation number either.
How do you know it is not required to be listed? There are MSDS for the compounds themselves.
Originally Posted by sloinker
It would be interesting to know the oxidation numbers and relative amount of esters in some of the Ravenol formulations. Their literature states they are PAO based and in some grades contain esters to boot. I currently have Red Line in two vehicles but am changing over to Ravenol when i do their next sceduled oil change. I have already completed the changeover on one vehicle. The primary reason for this is the extremely robust specifications, as good as the Red Line white/blue bottle, coupled with manufacturer approvals. If Ravenol hadn't come around I would still be buying the Red Line. The proof to me is the many racing teams that use the Red Line versus other boutique manufacturers in engines that are treated brutally and cost an arm and a leg. i imagine that a race team owner/mechanic/engine builder must have some justification for using it say over supertech. Most of these fellas are pretty pragmatic and don't feed at the trough of hype.
The Ravenols that don't claim esters don't have much oxidation in Russian VOAs. I didn't find a VOA for Ravenol DXG that claims esters.
It's interesting that Ravenol states ingredients explicitly: "For the development of RAVENOL DXG SAE 5W-30 the proven formulation of trinuclear molybdenum, tungsten and OFM (Organic Friction Modifiers) was used. A highly polar Group V base oil was used in this formula, which has good compatibility with the PAO used."
According to the PQIA UOA, it's definitely PAO, with the "base-oil quality index" (BOQI) I calculate is at the top of the chart, similar to the Amsoil Signature Series and the old, discontinued PAO/POE-based Pennzoil Ultra, because of the simultaneously low CCS and low Noack.
Some people on the Russian oil forum didn't like it though, saying it didn't perform well and one guy was saying the vanilla Mobil 1 5W-30 felt smoother/softer in his engine than both Ravenol and the ester-core Motul. However, these forum comments should be taken with a grain of salt as usual. Nevertheless, the PAO-based Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS does feel smooth/soft as butter in my engine. Apparently, there is not much POE in it though if at all.
It would be interesting to know the oxidation numbers and relative amount of esters in some of the Ravenol formulations. Their literature states they are PAO based and in some grades contain esters to boot. I currently have Red Line in two vehicles but am changing over to Ravenol when i do their next sceduled oil change. I have already completed the changeover on one vehicle. The primary reason for this is the extremely robust specifications, as good as the Red Line white/blue bottle, coupled with manufacturer approvals. If Ravenol hadn't come around I would still be buying the Red Line. The proof to me is the many racing teams that use the Red Line versus other boutique manufacturers in engines that are treated brutally and cost an arm and a leg. i imagine that a race team owner/mechanic/engine builder must have some justification for using it say over supertech. Most of these fellas are pretty pragmatic and don't feed at the trough of hype.
The Ravenols that don't claim esters don't have much oxidation in Russian VOAs. I didn't find a VOA for Ravenol DXG that claims esters.
It's interesting that Ravenol states ingredients explicitly: "For the development of RAVENOL DXG SAE 5W-30 the proven formulation of trinuclear molybdenum, tungsten and OFM (Organic Friction Modifiers) was used. A highly polar Group V base oil was used in this formula, which has good compatibility with the PAO used."
According to the PQIA UOA, it's definitely PAO, with the "base-oil quality index" (BOQI) I calculate is at the top of the chart, similar to the Amsoil Signature Series and the old, discontinued PAO/POE-based Pennzoil Ultra, because of the simultaneously low CCS and low Noack.
Some people on the Russian oil forum didn't like it though, saying it didn't perform well and one guy was saying the vanilla Mobil 1 5W-30 felt smoother/softer in his engine than both Ravenol and the ester-core Motul. However, these forum comments should be taken with a grain of salt as usual. Nevertheless, the PAO-based Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS does feel smooth/soft as butter in my engine. Apparently, there is not much POE in it though if at all.
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Alkylated naphthalene (AN) doesn't show in the MSDS because it's not consider hazardous (similar to polyol ester [POE] in that sense) and I don't think it shows as an oxidation number either.
How do you know it is not required to be listed? There are MSDS for the compounds themselves.
Many compounds aren't listed in the oil MSDSs. Why would they list alkylated naphthalene (AN), which is considered nonhazardous? Of course, there would be an MSDS for alkylated naphthalene itself that states that it's nonhazardous.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Alkylated naphthalene (AN) doesn't show in the MSDS because it's not consider hazardous (similar to polyol ester [POE] in that sense) and I don't think it shows as an oxidation number either.
How do you know it is not required to be listed? There are MSDS for the compounds themselves.
Many compounds aren't listed in the oil MSDSs. Why would they list alkylated naphthalene (AN), which is considered nonhazardous? Of course, there would be an MSDS for alkylated naphthalene itself that states that it's nonhazardous.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Many compounds aren't listed in the oil MSDSs. Why would they list alkylated naphthalene (AN), which is considered nonhazardous? Of course, there would be an MSDS for alkylated naphthalene itself that states that it's nonhazardous.
Oh I know most of that, at one time part of my job was to write MSDS. I just wondered where you saw it was listed somewhere as "nonhazardous". I never saw such a list.
And the MSDS for the compounds don't say it is nonhazardous. The ones I saw say it is irritating to the eyes and there are possible issues with combustion products. They also listed an LD50.
Many compounds aren't listed in the oil MSDSs. Why would they list alkylated naphthalene (AN), which is considered nonhazardous? Of course, there would be an MSDS for alkylated naphthalene itself that states that it's nonhazardous.
Oh I know most of that, at one time part of my job was to write MSDS. I just wondered where you saw it was listed somewhere as "nonhazardous". I never saw such a list.
And the MSDS for the compounds don't say it is nonhazardous. The ones I saw say it is irritating to the eyes and there are possible issues with combustion products. They also listed an LD50.
Originally Posted by kschachn
I just wondered where you saw it was listed somewhere as "nonhazardous".
Just download the MSDS for Synesstic, trade name for the Exxon Mobil alkylated naphthalene (AN).
"This material is not hazardous according to regulatory guidelines (see (M)SDS Section 15)."
ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
No significant hazards.
NFPA Hazard ID: Health: 0 Flammability: 1 Reactivity: 0
HMIS Hazard ID: Health: 0 Flammability: 1 Reactivity: 0
https://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/
I just wondered where you saw it was listed somewhere as "nonhazardous".
Just download the MSDS for Synesstic, trade name for the Exxon Mobil alkylated naphthalene (AN).
"This material is not hazardous according to regulatory guidelines (see (M)SDS Section 15)."
ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
No significant hazards.
NFPA Hazard ID: Health: 0 Flammability: 1 Reactivity: 0
HMIS Hazard ID: Health: 0 Flammability: 1 Reactivity: 0
https://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Just download the MSDS for Synesstic, trade name for the Exxon Mobil alkylated naphthalene (AN).
"This material is not hazardous according to regulatory guidelines (see (M)SDS Section 15)."
ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
No significant hazards.
NFPA Hazard ID: Health: 0 Flammability: 1 Reactivity: 0
HMIS Hazard ID: Health: 0 Flammability: 1 Reactivity: 0
https://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/
OK, thank you.
Just download the MSDS for Synesstic, trade name for the Exxon Mobil alkylated naphthalene (AN).
"This material is not hazardous according to regulatory guidelines (see (M)SDS Section 15)."
ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
No significant hazards.
NFPA Hazard ID: Health: 0 Flammability: 1 Reactivity: 0
HMIS Hazard ID: Health: 0 Flammability: 1 Reactivity: 0
https://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/
OK, thank you.
Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by sloinker
It would be interesting to know the oxidation numbers and relative amount of esters in some of the Ravenol formulations. Their literature states they are PAO based and in some grades contain esters to boot. I currently have Red Line in two vehicles but am changing over to Ravenol when i do their next sceduled oil change. I have already completed the changeover on one vehicle. The primary reason for this is the extremely robust specifications, as good as the Red Line white/blue bottle, coupled with manufacturer approvals. If Ravenol hadn't come around I would still be buying the Red Line. The proof to me is the many racing teams that use the Red Line versus other boutique manufacturers in engines that are treated brutally and cost an arm and a leg. i imagine that a race team owner/mechanic/engine builder must have some justification for using it say over supertech. Most of these fellas are pretty pragmatic and don't feed at the trough of hype.
Couple of flaws in the logic because race teams use it. First the number one motor oil brand is Mobil One. Second a race engine is not used in a manner like a your passenger car engine. If the engine is reused it's getting mutiple oil changes and the OCI is very short.
There are a couple reasons that I use boutique oils and why I correlate them to racing applications. I feel the oils used by racers represent in a very short time what regular engines may see over a very long time. Mobil One may be the number one brand, Vanilla ice cream is also a best seller. I imagine that walmart sells more supertech than Mobil One but these numbers aren't published.
Originally Posted by sloinker
It would be interesting to know the oxidation numbers and relative amount of esters in some of the Ravenol formulations. Their literature states they are PAO based and in some grades contain esters to boot. I currently have Red Line in two vehicles but am changing over to Ravenol when i do their next sceduled oil change. I have already completed the changeover on one vehicle. The primary reason for this is the extremely robust specifications, as good as the Red Line white/blue bottle, coupled with manufacturer approvals. If Ravenol hadn't come around I would still be buying the Red Line. The proof to me is the many racing teams that use the Red Line versus other boutique manufacturers in engines that are treated brutally and cost an arm and a leg. i imagine that a race team owner/mechanic/engine builder must have some justification for using it say over supertech. Most of these fellas are pretty pragmatic and don't feed at the trough of hype.
Couple of flaws in the logic because race teams use it. First the number one motor oil brand is Mobil One. Second a race engine is not used in a manner like a your passenger car engine. If the engine is reused it's getting mutiple oil changes and the OCI is very short.
There are a couple reasons that I use boutique oils and why I correlate them to racing applications. I feel the oils used by racers represent in a very short time what regular engines may see over a very long time. Mobil One may be the number one brand, Vanilla ice cream is also a best seller. I imagine that walmart sells more supertech than Mobil One but these numbers aren't published.
Originally Posted by dave1251
https://forums.noria.com/topic/redline-oil-would-like-your-thoughts-experiencesp
No need for you to post testimonials for over a decade Dave at Red Line either mislead stating Red Line was Ester based or 100% ester. You got your answer twice.
The post was deleted. What was there?
Another court injunction like in Ravenol case?
https://forums.noria.com/topic/redline-oil-would-like-your-thoughts-experiencesp
No need for you to post testimonials for over a decade Dave at Red Line either mislead stating Red Line was Ester based or 100% ester. You got your answer twice.
The post was deleted. What was there?
Another court injunction like in Ravenol case?
Originally Posted by sloinker
There are a couple reasons that I use boutique oils and why I correlate them to racing applications. I feel the oils used by racers represent in a very short time what regular engines may see over a very long time.
Unless you are ONLY tracking you vehicle this theory won't hold up. Racers operate their engines under entirely different conditions than us mortals.
There are a couple reasons that I use boutique oils and why I correlate them to racing applications. I feel the oils used by racers represent in a very short time what regular engines may see over a very long time.
Unless you are ONLY tracking you vehicle this theory won't hold up. Racers operate their engines under entirely different conditions than us mortals.
Far enough but there is no correlation to your theory.
I can only say once again we have guys running blue label high performance in PCMO applications due to hemi tick, and these are long term with many guys doing mutiple uoa's. Well over the 6 year mark since we started trying to find oils that may elliviate hemi tick. We also have many guys including myself cutting out oil filters open as well. By every measure we could think to do, Redline is a good long term oil. To think we didn't have concerns about this way back when is to not understand what we were trying to do. Back then we had no idea if we could even find something, but when we did we decided to test the [censored] out of it so we don't screw up our own trucks. A handful of guys did exaclty those things and they are well documented. Just so the next guy can feel comfortable at a minimum you can run redline for many years and there are no suprises like ending up with seal material in your oil filter, or having uoa's that have wear through the roof, none of that stuff happened.
Many guys doing mutiple uoa's and also have runs with other oils such as Amsoil SS and PUP 0w40. Not to get into the weeds and make people all defensive, but the uoa's are at a minimum showing wear numbers drop like a rock the longer you run the redline high performance. I don't know if some of those are posted in the hemi tick thread or not, I will ask some of the members if they posted over here, if they did I will spare posting them again, unless someone wants to get shillish about it, then of course they will be posted. Take my word on it, lest you will see them posted in this thread which I'd rather not. This thread was about redline's new oil at one point, and I'm not particularly impressed with it.
Many guys doing mutiple uoa's and also have runs with other oils such as Amsoil SS and PUP 0w40. Not to get into the weeds and make people all defensive, but the uoa's are at a minimum showing wear numbers drop like a rock the longer you run the redline high performance. I don't know if some of those are posted in the hemi tick thread or not, I will ask some of the members if they posted over here, if they did I will spare posting them again, unless someone wants to get shillish about it, then of course they will be posted. Take my word on it, lest you will see them posted in this thread which I'd rather not. This thread was about redline's new oil at one point, and I'm not particularly impressed with it.
Originally Posted by Y_K
Originally Posted by dave1251
https://forums.noria.com/topic/redline-oil-would-like-your-thoughts-experiencesp
No need for you to post testimonials for over a decade Dave at Red Line either mislead stating Red Line was Ester based or 100% ester. You got your answer twice.
The post was deleted. What was there?
Another court injunction like in Ravenol case?
Links for Ravenol injunction?
Originally Posted by dave1251
https://forums.noria.com/topic/redline-oil-would-like-your-thoughts-experiencesp
No need for you to post testimonials for over a decade Dave at Red Line either mislead stating Red Line was Ester based or 100% ester. You got your answer twice.
The post was deleted. What was there?
Another court injunction like in Ravenol case?
Links for Ravenol injunction?
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