Redline D6 ATF substituting for Toyota WS

MolaKule

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Originally Posted by MolaKule
Quote
He did say, you only want to use the same brand Type-F fluid from the same manufacture so the add-packs and base oils are close to the same. He has no issue with doing this.
Sounds like another so-called expert who knows little to nothing about formulation, PI packages, and their suppliers. Messing with the dynamic friction coefficients of ATFs' can be disadvantageous for transmission life.. Use type "F" ATF only for modified racing transmission such as the TH350 and TH400 and PowerGlide, and older specific Ford transmissions. For some more scientific/engineering background see: SAE 902148: Physical and Chemical Properties of a Typical Automatic Transmission Fluid and, https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/
Here is the complete quote:
Originally Posted by Molecule
One Additional Note: ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes: Lubrication for gears. Cooling and heat transfer. Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter. Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch. One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the tranny. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement. In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used. Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and aramid fibers. Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients. The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates. Friction materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites). Today, composites are the norm. Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications. This material must exhibit: 1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption 2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness. When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate. The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation. Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system. The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package. I bring this up because of the above list of ATF Friction Modifiers: fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above. The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets. With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured. Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series. Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement. Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic.
 
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Originally Posted by dblshock
WS junk? really? seems they have the best power trains on earth.
Can you further explain that as that part is greatly missing in my Sienna.
 
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on avg I believe that, sorry for your Sienna, after 4 different disappointments I'd avoid AWD of all stripes ...clumsy stumbling disheveled at 50k+ whoa, just did a WS ATF OCI on my T4R..had to jump the OBD 4/13 slots to bring up ATF temp on dash, then open up the tube to correct the level @temp...thought at first of just filling to top of fill hole, like a diff..lol. (actually my Honda CVT goes to the fill hole)
 
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Originally Posted by dblshock
on avg I believe that, sorry for your Sienna, after 4 different disappointments I'd avoid AWD of all stripes ...clumsy stumbling disheveled at 50k+ whoa, just did a WS ATF OCI on my T4R..had to jump the OBD 4/13 slots to bring up ATF temp on dash, then open up the tube to correct the level @temp...thought at first of just filling to top of fill hole, like a diff..lol. (actually my Honda CVT goes to the fill hole)
There is nothing wrong with my Sienna, it moves, it works as designed. That is actually problem, it should work that way. Non existing brakes, suspension like it will separate from a car, dancing mirrors when I crank up JBL, engine that begs to revs below 2000rpms and when you step on it whole assembly is telling me: please do not, please. I am still trying to figure out how these vehicles keep such value as my wife's Tiguan feels like a tank compare to it.
 
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My T4R trans loves the WS..can't fool it....rolling stops, turns or stomp on it...always spot-on..long as it was on stands I put the Falken's back on..nicer than the Alanza H/S plus I run in summer.
 
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by dblshock
on avg I believe that, sorry for your Sienna, after 4 different disappointments I'd avoid AWD of all stripes ...clumsy stumbling disheveled at 50k+ whoa, just did a WS ATF OCI on my T4R..had to jump the OBD 4/13 slots to bring up ATF temp on dash, then open up the tube to correct the level @temp...thought at first of just filling to top of fill hole, like a diff..lol. (actually my Honda CVT goes to the fill hole)
There is nothing wrong with my Sienna, it moves, it works as designed. That is actually problem, it should work that way. Non existing brakes, suspension like it will separate from a car, dancing mirrors when I crank up JBL, engine that begs to revs below 2000rpms and when you step on it whole assembly is telling me: please do not, please. I am still trying to figure out how these vehicles keep such value as my wife's Tiguan feels like a tank compare to it.
poor tires?
 
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Originally Posted by dblshock
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by dblshock
on avg I believe that, sorry for your Sienna, after 4 different disappointments I'd avoid AWD of all stripes ...clumsy stumbling disheveled at 50k+ whoa, just did a WS ATF OCI on my T4R..had to jump the OBD 4/13 slots to bring up ATF temp on dash, then open up the tube to correct the level @temp...thought at first of just filling to top of fill hole, like a diff..lol. (actually my Honda CVT goes to the fill hole)
There is nothing wrong with my Sienna, it moves, it works as designed. That is actually problem, it should work that way. Non existing brakes, suspension like it will separate from a car, dancing mirrors when I crank up JBL, engine that begs to revs below 2000rpms and when you step on it whole assembly is telling me: please do not, please. I am still trying to figure out how these vehicles keep such value as my wife's Tiguan feels like a tank compare to it.
poor tires?
LOL, tires are brand new, Bridgestone Driveguard. I know when something is just poorly built. This thing has AWD and somehow still has torque steer in front. Actually that is achievement. Also, engineer who figured out position of oil filter should get "most stupid" award. I have never seen anything like that in my life. I am actually scared for my emotional health driving this vehicle. Need to get a BMW 1 or 3 series asap as daily driver. On topic of WS, I am afraid to put anything that is synthetic in it, as it might be of too much quality.
 
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Cross all these other vehicles off the list when new car shopping, since you know they're not good enough. smirk
Originally Posted by edyvw
OK guys, so this is how this endeavor panned out. We figured that Q7 is too small, and were thinking that Mercedes Gl450 would be our next vehicle. But, it just does not drive that good. Engine has power, but it is a barge, 5,800lbs barge. Then we were like: let's get Q7 and see how it goes. But, I just was not sold on compromise that Q7 would be same like X5, enjoying it all the time. I was thinking if I get car that is not that practical (well bit more practical than X5) and I do not enjoy it, then I will regret it. So, I figured that all this thinking and finding flaws are taking me to minivan! I figured that I could get van, and save substantial amount of money over Q7 or MB and use that to get myself BMW 335i with stick shift. So I pulled trigger on Toyota Sienna AWD limited. It is only AWD van so not much thinking there. It s very practical, lot's of space, nice JBL audio system. It handles, well if one could call that handling, like a van. Brakes are abysmal and I will have to do some work there, maybe go with EBC or Hawk to improve response. Engine is pretty smooth for V6, transmission is seamless. Final verdict is: Thank God it has JBL with subwoofer otherwise I would fall asleep driving it, but we need vehicle like that. I will just have to be patient maybe a year until I find good E90 335i.
 
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by dblshock
on avg I believe that, sorry for your Sienna, after 4 different disappointments I'd avoid AWD of all stripes ...clumsy stumbling disheveled at 50k+ whoa, just did a WS ATF OCI on my T4R..had to jump the OBD 4/13 slots to bring up ATF temp on dash, then open up the tube to correct the level @temp...thought at first of just filling to top of fill hole, like a diff..lol. (actually my Honda CVT goes to the fill hole)
There is nothing wrong with my Sienna, it moves, it works as designed. That is actually problem, it should work that way. Non existing brakes, suspension like it will separate from a car, dancing mirrors when I crank up JBL, engine that begs to revs below 2000rpms and when you step on it whole assembly is telling me: please do not, please. I am still trying to figure out how these vehicles keep such value as my wife's Tiguan feels like a tank compare to it.
Edyvw I hear what you are saying! We test drove a new sienna in 2012 when we were in the market for a van. Overall a nice van but it handled like, well, a van. It moved, brakes were okay, and suspension was okay, but none of these items were paticularly impressive. Handling was fine around town, but at 75 on the freeway the thing swayed and felt squirrelly, for lack of better term. We ended up buying an Odyssey, given the much better handling at all speeds. Don't get me wrong, it has its issues. But the handling is still quite impressive...car-like ride and steering response in a van! Now, the sound system has a lot to be desired...
 
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Originally Posted by SatinSilver
Cross all these other vehicles off the list when new car shopping, since you know they're not good enough. smirk
Originally Posted by edyvw
OK guys, so this is how this endeavor panned out. We figured that Q7 is too small, and were thinking that Mercedes Gl450 would be our next vehicle. But, it just does not drive that good. Engine has power, but it is a barge, 5,800lbs barge. Then we were like: let's get Q7 and see how it goes. But, I just was not sold on compromise that Q7 would be same like X5, enjoying it all the time. I was thinking if I get car that is not that practical (well bit more practical than X5) and I do not enjoy it, then I will regret it. So, I figured that all this thinking and finding flaws are taking me to minivan! I figured that I could get van, and save substantial amount of money over Q7 or MB and use that to get myself BMW 335i with stick shift. So I pulled trigger on Toyota Sienna AWD limited. It is only AWD van so not much thinking there. It s very practical, lot's of space, nice JBL audio system. It handles, well if one could call that handling, like a van. Brakes are abysmal and I will have to do some work there, maybe go with EBC or Hawk to improve response. Engine is pretty smooth for V6, transmission is seamless. Final verdict is: Thank God it has JBL with subwoofer otherwise I would fall asleep driving it, but we need vehicle like that. I will just have to be patient maybe a year until I find good E90 335i.
I crossed them bcs SIenna is practical. As for engineering it is like comparing Space Shuttle (Audi or MB) to Piper (Sienna). Do not get fooled that I bought Sienna because its engineering is pinnacle of automotive industry. However, in defense of it, it actually drive better then Highlander.
 
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Originally Posted by RyanY
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by dblshock
on avg I believe that, sorry for your Sienna, after 4 different disappointments I'd avoid AWD of all stripes ...clumsy stumbling disheveled at 50k+ whoa, just did a WS ATF OCI on my T4R..had to jump the OBD 4/13 slots to bring up ATF temp on dash, then open up the tube to correct the level @temp...thought at first of just filling to top of fill hole, like a diff..lol. (actually my Honda CVT goes to the fill hole)
There is nothing wrong with my Sienna, it moves, it works as designed. That is actually problem, it should work that way. Non existing brakes, suspension like it will separate from a car, dancing mirrors when I crank up JBL, engine that begs to revs below 2000rpms and when you step on it whole assembly is telling me: please do not, please. I am still trying to figure out how these vehicles keep such value as my wife's Tiguan feels like a tank compare to it.
Edyvw I hear what you are saying! We test drove a new sienna in 2012 when we were in the market for a van. Overall a nice van but it handled like, well, a van. It moved, brakes were okay, and suspension was okay, but none of these items were paticularly impressive. Handling was fine around town, but at 75 on the freeway the thing swayed and felt squirrelly, for lack of better term. We ended up buying an Odyssey, given the much better handling at all speeds. Don't get me wrong, it has its issues. But the handling is still quite impressive...car-like ride and steering response in a van! Now, the sound system has a lot to be desired...
The handling is actually better then in Highlander. It is same platform, drivetrain, but engine and car overall sits lower. Brakes? I traded in BMW X5 for SIenna. After that car brakes on Toyota feel like they are actually not there. So this question about WS or some other fluid. These drivetrains cannot be more simple then they are. Toyota accordingly made fluid for it. One can use something more stout and I highly doubt it will create any issues.
 
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Been running Redline D6 in my 2007 Prius for 120,000 miles and 11 years. Love it. I sent out the fluid to Wearcheck after about 40,000 miles when I first started using it and although showed spectacular low wear numbers the TAN was creeping up a little. Makes perfect sense to me as Redline D6 is pure Esther base stock fluid and has no life extending package mainly calcium which is an anti acidic agent. The WS has a very big calcium pack in it based on UOA's I have seen which is why they tout it as Lifetime Fluid. But calcium is a wear agent. So...Redline trans fluid is a great product but it helps to know how the trans is digging it. Some trans are more acidic than others. Based on my car 50,000 miles is about as long as I would like it in there. High performance is not cheap.
 
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Originally Posted by Mainia
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
I have owned many vehicles incl. this wallet killer GLE350 and there is no transmission that shifts and feels like a Aisin. There is no vehicle which is more reliable than a Toyo, period. Yes there are shortfalls in every manufacturer incl. Toyo but they are byfar the best bang for the buck. To say WS is a semi-syn and not up to mark, then pl. publish your credentials and how you have proved that point.
Nope, I am not going to waste my time with that sub standard crap cheap price point WS oil to satisfy your fanboyism for WS. What I dumped out of my Rav4 at 21,400 miles was total toasted WS. I have changed over 40 ATF cars and only seen that toasted of ATF about 4 times in high mileage Audis. You run that garbage oil, go right ahead. Any ATF pumper with no cooler needs a group 5 or minimum group 4 ATF, not the group 2/3 WS is. YOU have an external cooler, you can run WS, since the heat won't kill it right away in it's early life.. Cheap crap, but you can run it. I know Toyota's are very reliable, that why I bought it, but I sure found out WHERE they skimp and it all is under the radar where average people can't see it. They all do some of it because of cost, but Toyota you can just blatantly see their deep skimping with your own eyes plain as day, and WS is one of them. Your in TX , you have no clue on how rusty the skimping on metallurgy Toyota/Lexus has here in Minnesota. It's pathetic that they skimp so badly with it. They last ,but get your cutting torch out to change anything under the car after 4 years plus. Not with a Honda , Hyundai, Audi and VW. If you did not like Redline my next choice would be Amsoil SS ATF.
Ok but how do they (Toyota) have countless customers who have never serviced their transmissions (the A750 series comes to mind) and have over 200k without Transmission failure? Toyota WS isn't the best OEM ATF but it's been shown to do quite well in high mileage vehicles without any service. And there is of course the people who state Toyota had Exxon Mobil change the red dye so it doesn't turn black so quickly.
 
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Originally Posted by AzFireGuy79
Originally Posted by Mainia
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
I have owned many vehicles incl. this wallet killer GLE350 and there is no transmission that shifts and feels like a Aisin. There is no vehicle which is more reliable than a Toyo, period. Yes there are shortfalls in every manufacturer incl. Toyo but they are byfar the best bang for the buck. To say WS is a semi-syn and not up to mark, then pl. publish your credentials and how you have proved that point.
Nope, I am not going to waste my time with that sub standard crap cheap price point WS oil to satisfy your fanboyism for WS. What I dumped out of my Rav4 at 21,400 miles was total toasted WS. I have changed over 40 ATF cars and only seen that toasted of ATF about 4 times in high mileage Audis. You run that garbage oil, go right ahead. Any ATF pumper with no cooler needs a group 5 or minimum group 4 ATF, not the group 2/3 WS is. YOU have an external cooler, you can run WS, since the heat won't kill it right away in it's early life.. Cheap crap, but you can run it. I know Toyota's are very reliable, that why I bought it, but I sure found out WHERE they skimp and it all is under the radar where average people can't see it. They all do some of it because of cost, but Toyota you can just blatantly see their deep skimping with your own eyes plain as day, and WS is one of them. Your in TX , you have no clue on how rusty the skimping on metallurgy Toyota/Lexus has here in Minnesota. It's pathetic that they skimp so badly with it. They last ,but get your cutting torch out to change anything under the car after 4 years plus. Not with a Honda , Hyundai, Audi and VW. If you did not like Redline my next choice would be Amsoil SS ATF.
Ok but how do they (Toyota) have countless customers who have never serviced their transmissions (the A750 series comes to mind) and have over 200k without Transmission failure? Toyota WS isn't the best OEM ATF but it's been shown to do quite well in high mileage vehicles without any service. And there is of course the people who state Toyota had Exxon Mobil change the red dye so it doesn't turn black so quickly.
The way average Toyota driver drives, it will make 1,000,000 miles on olive oil. Toyota's are crime against anyone who thinks that driving might be more then just going from point A to point B. That is how they make vehicles. When you want to drive bit faster the engine has this sound: please don't, I beg you don't. WHat engines is telling you is actually do not do it, as brakes might not be safe above 70mph.
 
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You are losing me I'm not gonna lie.. Your "opinion" is that Aisin transmissions, not Toyota(Toyota does not fully own or control that company fyi) can run on substandard oil, and last forever, but the engines when driven beyond a reasonable level will simply not be up to the task🤔. The 2UZ-FE in particular is bulletproof. I think you just don't like Toyota's, and your communication skills are a little lacking. At no time do you present any tangible data, just your opinion of a manufacturer as a whole. This site use to be about data and real world experience. Lately personal opinions backed by zero professional experience seem to be the prevailing theme....
 
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Originally Posted by AzFireGuy79
You are losing me I'm not gonna lie.. Your "opinion" is that Aisin transmissions, not Toyota(Toyota does not fully own or control that company fyi) can run on substandard oil, and last forever, but the engines when driven beyond a reasonable level will simply not be up to the task🤔. The 2UZ-FE in particular is bulletproof. I think you just don't like Toyota's, and your communication skills are a little lacking. At no time do you present any tangible data, just your opinion of a manufacturer as a whole. This site use to be about data and real world experience. Lately personal opinions backed by zero professional experience seem to be the prevailing theme....
I think you really missed my point. Toyota WS will be fine in that transmission. It is not like Toyota makes that fluid, and even if it does, it will be fine. Toyota is an expert in making uber, super, duper boring vehicles. They even admitted that that they lost know-how in last two decades so that is why they decided to go with BMW on last Supra (among other things they buy from BMW). But Toyota made that decision, to make vehicles like that, and they make money and that is it. Using WS is perfectly fine. I stated what I stated because all this drama around WS. First of all, if D6 for example is such a good oil, why they do not get approvals from transmission manufacturers? That is same thing they do with engine oils, and in reality they cannot get approvals. Redline recently did that with their 5W40 oils, acquired approval from BMW< but it turned out they had to develop completely different oil and it is mediocre oil at best compare to other BMW approved oils. So unless that transmission fluid says that it is approved by Toyota, I first will put WS in my Toyota once I hit 60k when I will change fluid in transmission, TC and differentials. My point is there is too much talk about something that is pretty straightforward and above all, we are talking about vehicles that are purposely developed as not bulletproof, but dumbproof. As for Toyota as manufacturer, I still claim Yugo had some things better executed. When I owned Yugo and installed aftermarket audio system I did not have to roll down window to stop rattling noise in the doors. I actually have to do that with 2015 Sienna.
 
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Toyota makes great cars. WS is a good ATF. Same with Honda's DW-1. They will work, no doubt. I prefer to use a higher quality fluid like Idemitsu. And our 2018 RX450h and 2013 GS350 F Sport are not boring cars, at least in my opinion. Just my 2 cents.
 
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