Redline 5w-40,03 subaru,8000 oil/18K car
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So is the ACEA, the AMA, and a host of other standard-setting groups. That, in and of itself, means nothing. Those that do it are interested in regulating it, thus most standard-setters are trade groups.
There is a certain give-and-take in the API which none of the posts that I read seem to recognize. The manufacturers of automobiles would like an oil that guarantees no warranty claims, incredible gas mileage, and perfect performance.
The oil companies would like to use what they have, spend little, and charge a lot.
Out of those conflicting interests something emerges that looks like consensus, just as it does in any regulatory body.
If the standards are so low, Red Line should be willing to invest the $75k to 100k to certify its street oils. Certainly they spend that kind of money on their website, sales reps, advertising, and revisions to their label designs.
In the absence of that certification, and without discussing the pro and cons of their formulation, I'd steer friends with cars under warranty away from Red Line, as I steer them away from experimenting with extended oil change intervals. Mobil 1, Schaeffer, and several other companies make excellent synthetics that meet all warranty requirements.
Once the vehicle is out from under warranty, there are a plethora of synthetics worthy of consideration.
Mickey, I think many of us who work in the industry and post/lurk here recognize the give and take of the API. The final product until recently (say last 5 years) was average tribologically, at best and allowed the Boutique producers including api "licensed" Schaeffers to carve out a niche.
Out of curiosity and if you don't mind ;
What was your background in the industry and who did you work for ? Mobil ?
While observing the letter of the law and the owners manual is a start I think many here are interested in going a few notches further than blanket statments formed in committee and developed by business's who interest is in selling and reselling the core product, whether that be a API licensed oil product or new cars.
Information is power but only if you are willing to use it properly.
Out of curiosity and if you don't mind ;
What was your background in the industry and who did you work for ? Mobil ?
While observing the letter of the law and the owners manual is a start I think many here are interested in going a few notches further than blanket statments formed in committee and developed by business's who interest is in selling and reselling the core product, whether that be a API licensed oil product or new cars.
Information is power but only if you are willing to use it properly.
It's not reflected in the posts that I reviewed.
The API has avoided the kind of draconian regulations that drove many gasoline refiners out of business when the government stepped into that business on the one hand, and raised the bar without driving costs through the ceiling on the other.
Nothing prevents manufacturers from exceeding its standards, or even rejecting them (Mobil 1 Racing, for an example).
Its major competitor, the ACEA, has gone out of its way to reject international standards and cooperation, toadied to the car manufacturers, and left the European driving public with a confusing array of special standards and needlessly expensive lubricants.
When it comes to warranty requirements, either an oil is certified to meet the manufacturer's minimum standards or it is not. Either you observe the intervals for various maintenance or you do not. If it does not or you do not, speeches about committees, businesses, selling, and reselling are poor compensation for a voided warranty.
Once you're out of warranty, do as you wish.
I began with American Motors in the midwest, working in the service area - including various aspects of warranty claims, and then Chrysler Corporation doing much the same work. I then worked with Mobil's test fleet, used for evaluating new and existing products.
Mickey, I appreciate your opinions and background. Even though we may see things a bit differently.
I understand why many that are active in the business are reluctant to post here. Particularily those who are representing a branded line or name.
When judging the flavor and direction of this board remember we all disagree mightily about many things and not all are experienced enough to discuss all subject areas with authority.
The # of posts on a subject are sometimes inversely proportional to knowledge base.
Lubricant testing, formulation, R&D, and regulation is a art as well as a science. We are trying hard here to cut through the marketing interests that are usually over represented and get more science and technology for optimum value and protection in actual practice.
You failed to answer my hypothetical about antique auto lubricants.
Have we ever worked together ?
Terry
I understand why many that are active in the business are reluctant to post here. Particularily those who are representing a branded line or name.
When judging the flavor and direction of this board remember we all disagree mightily about many things and not all are experienced enough to discuss all subject areas with authority.
The # of posts on a subject are sometimes inversely proportional to knowledge base.
Lubricant testing, formulation, R&D, and regulation is a art as well as a science. We are trying hard here to cut through the marketing interests that are usually over represented and get more science and technology for optimum value and protection in actual practice.
You failed to answer my hypothetical about antique auto lubricants.
Have we ever worked together ?
Terry
I actually use Mobil 1, most often the 20W-50 V-twin motorcycle product, in old engines.
One of its advantages is that I don't have to worry about seal and gasket compatibility, which could be an issue with an ester-based synthetic.
Terry, if you can answer this, do you feel that redline is an oil strictly for performance engine and engines that are raced or harder on oils, or is it an oil I could possibly consider for my saturn or tacoma with an extended drain. I know it costs more and it kinda gets the reputation its more for a race or performance engine.
elwaylite, I think in most applications it is overkill unless you;
need to extend drains,especially if you refuse to use something like LC or other adds.
have issues with sludge or ring pack sticking
need a wide vis spread or thin weight oil that must be very stable.
high performance applications.
need lubricant induced cooling for hot running issues.
If you try the chemistry it will expend itself cleaning up the previous oils and associated
residues, essentially sacrificing the solvency of the base oils natural TBN and the add TBN to clean.
Once the engine is adjusted to the chemistry extended drains of 10,000 min to 20,000 max are easy to achieve.
I will say that if really long drains are desired in a gas engine Amsoil with LC is the cats meow.
If you will add LC nearly ANY current oil chemistry will go 10,000 miles safely/cleanly.
All these recomendations assume a clean, well maintained engine without dirt ingestion issues.
I am amazed how many first time analysis customers tell me that they are surprised their synthetic lubed 30 or 40,000 mile car was so dirty
internally and needed a tune up and/or had
air filter issues once we sampled !
Hope that answers the question.
need to extend drains,especially if you refuse to use something like LC or other adds.
have issues with sludge or ring pack sticking
need a wide vis spread or thin weight oil that must be very stable.
high performance applications.
need lubricant induced cooling for hot running issues.
If you try the chemistry it will expend itself cleaning up the previous oils and associated
residues, essentially sacrificing the solvency of the base oils natural TBN and the add TBN to clean.
Once the engine is adjusted to the chemistry extended drains of 10,000 min to 20,000 max are easy to achieve.
I will say that if really long drains are desired in a gas engine Amsoil with LC is the cats meow.
If you will add LC nearly ANY current oil chemistry will go 10,000 miles safely/cleanly.
All these recomendations assume a clean, well maintained engine without dirt ingestion issues.
I am amazed how many first time analysis customers tell me that they are surprised their synthetic lubed 30 or 40,000 mile car was so dirty
internally and needed a tune up and/or had
air filter issues once we sampled !
Hope that answers the question.
Terry,
You know I love ya man, but you got to stop talking about these 10-20,000 mile drains. If I were able to pop the top (in earnest) on a bottle of the ELixer of Lubricious Luxuriousness only once a year...oh my...
Yeah terry that answers alot, thanks for the input.
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Err .Terry ..do we have a time duration listed here? Many who use UOA don't usually put any REAL mileage on some very expensive oils. Given that the 3k/3m dogma has been around since the carbed engines (well back into the carbed engines) and that oils have evolved many generations beyond that time ..... yet we look at an 8k run as exceptional. I like to think that they just end the OCI at a convenient time.
I did see you recommend a 20% increase in OCI here. A safe increment of extension.
btw-I will be seeing you on my next UOA @ 12.5 or 15k with Delvac 1.
I did see you recommend a 20% increase in OCI here. A safe increment of extension.
btw-I will be seeing you on my next UOA @ 12.5 or 15k with Delvac 1.
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Thank you, Terry! I'll also thank the un-named owner/client in abstentia for his/her most generous allowance afforded us in the sharing of information. It appears that he/she is looking forward to a rather decent XOCI well into the 10k+ range (where others fear to venture
what is meant by mag clor environment of Colorado ?, just curious ? . any info would be cool . thanks.
Joe
Joe
MolaKule
Staff member
In almost every post you mention this so-called incompatibility with seals.
Let's forget about gaskets for the moment. Do you have any historical or other hard data, say from 1985 on, to support your statements about ester-based lubricants causing seal leaks?
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