Redline 5w-20 / 9,700mi on oil / 2014 5.7 Hemi Durango R/T

Somehow I doubt they use any API or API-derived additive schemas. European lubes don't use them either. They've been in business with Lubrizol for so long that I suspect by now Lubrizol maintains and updates a separate repository just for Red Line Oil.

I don't think they do. Yeah, they have a close relationship with Lubrizol. So does Driven, Amsoil, Penngrade, and many others. Lubrizol isn't blending a custom additive package for each of these brands. No additive company does that. They may work together with them on testing different combinations of additives, like Driven and Lubrizol did for nearly 2 years in development of their GP-1 line, but Lubrizol is not blending something custom just for them.

You have basic additive packages that contain your basic AW, FM, EP, and DI additives. They're good for an API approval in that form, or ACEA, or whatever spec the client needs to meet, and they don't have add packs sitting around that don't meet any sort of approval. In the case of Red Line, they get an older (and likely cheaper) API SL add pack to serve as their base. They take polyol ester (most of the reason it's expensive) up to 40% concentration, likely blend in a lot of PAO 4 and PAO 6 to serve as VII and give some cold properties, and blend in whatever else for that particular line/grade. Then they blend in the add pack (API add pack, ACEA add pack, Nigerian Prince Abu-Munjabi Viet-Tokyo Mary Beth Rottenbutt spec add pack, whatever...) and then top treat the additives they want to boost.
 
Lubrizol isn't blending a custom additive package for each of these brands.
I assume they have a modular approach engine oil formulation that can be easily adapted (for them) to the needs of each customer. More than likely, they use software that provides them with accurate results.

In the case of Red Line, they get an older (and likely cheaper) API SL add pack to serve as their base.
You mean an SL-era simplified, as in the full-SAPS additive package. Very possible, I mean, profits have to be made. Then again, they have an ACEA C3 line of lubes.

They take polyol ester (most of the reason it's expensive) up to 40% concentration, likely blend in a lot of PAO 4 and PAO 6 to serve as VII and give some cold properties, and blend in whatever else for that particular line/grade. Then they blend in the add pack (API add pack, ACEA add pack, Nigerian Prince Abu-Munjabi Viet-Tokyo Mary Beth Rottenbutt spec add pack, whatever...) and then top treat the additives they want to boost.
It's highly possible. However, I was saying that at this point, Lubrizol might provide them with the additive packages and blending guide for their lubricants. Looking at that Hagerty article, it is a very plausible assumption.

I just sent off an email to them asking about this subject. I wonder if they will ever reply.
 
Somehow I doubt they use any API or API-derived additive schemas. European lubes don't use them either. They've been in business with Lubrizol for so long that I suspect by now Lubrizol maintains and updates a separate repository just for Red Line Oil.
Think back a bit :)

At the time that SL was current, there wasn't really any difference in additive concentration allowances between it, and the ACEA protocols that would apply to a similar lube like A3/B4.

When the API limits started to get restricted there were exemptions for the xW-40 lubes so oils like Castrol's 0w-40, that appeared around that time, and Mobil's 0w-40 could be SM, then SN like they are right now, and not have to worry about anything.

However, during this period, when Castrol's 0w-30 and other Euro xW-30's were being produced, they hung onto the legacy SL designation because that was as high as they could go at the level the oils were additized. They were not compliant with anything newer.

I believe some of the OEM oils in the xW-30 grades completely abandoned the API approvals at that point.

So, back when Redline white bottle was first being developed, it was quite likely that the additive package used as the foundation was indeed something based on SL at the time. The choice of additives supports that, but of course the concentrations are even higher, which brings us to the point @RDY4WAR made about top treating or over-treating to get the concentrations they wanted.

Lubrizol I believe is also the main partner for AMSOIL and Valvoline as well as myriad small blenders. They sell "cookie cutter" additive packages, already approved, that some companies will use to produce their approved products. Of course they can also develop custom packages and it is likely they have some "cookie cutter" packages of different performance categories that aren't approved (for racing oils and the like) but would be appropriate for other types of oils.

Mobil and Shell of course don't deal with Lubrizol because they co-own Infineum.
 
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I thought Roy retired, and that was at least part of why Red Line was sold to C-P. Have I conflated 2 unrelated events?

Separately, I have run Red Line for 10,000 miles, and more, in multiple vehicles on many occasions over the past 25 - 30 years. No more useful than cheap UOAs are, they've never shown a problem in doing that in my vehicles and uses.
 
I thought Roy retired, and that was at least part of why Red Line was sold to C-P. Have I conflated 2 unrelated events?


Think back a bit :)

At the time that SL was current, there wasn't really any difference in additive concentration allowances between it, and the ACEA protocols that would apply to a similar lube like A3/B4.
I completely agree with what you're saying, I was just implying that by now Lubrizol takes care of Red Line Oil's formulations.

When the API limits started to get restricted there were exemptions for the xW-40 lubes so oils like Castrol's 0w-40, that appeared around that time, and Mobil's 0w-40 could be SM, then SN like they are right now, and not have to worry about anything.
Even API SP, as long as they're not dual rated for Gasoline and Diesel engines. IIRC Mobil 1 0W-40 came out in the 90s, with the 1996 Porsche 911 using it as its factory fill. Typing from memory here, so I could be wrong.

However, during this period, when Castrol's 0w-30 and other Euro xW-30's were being produced, they hung onto the legacy SL designation because that was as high as they could go at the level the oils were additized. They were not compliant with anything newer.
No, but Castrol EDGE Euro 5W-30, Mobil 1 FS 5W-30 (yes, it exists in some parts of the world) have updated formulations and carry OEM approvals, albeit they're still API SL, due to additive level limitations imposed by the API.

I believe some of the OEM oils in the xW-30 grades completely abandoned the API approvals at that point.
Some Mobil 1 ESP lubes come to mind, even though they are highly advanced formulations.

So, back when Redline white bottle was first being developed, it was quite likely that the additive package used as the foundation was indeed something based on SL at the time. The choice of additives supports that, but of course the concentrations are even higher, which brings us to the point @RDY4WAR made about top treating over over-treating to get the concentrations they wanted.
I would say that's the scary aspect.

Lubrizol I believe is also the main partner for AMSOIL and Valvoline as well as myriad small blenders. They sell "cookie cutter" additive packages, already approved, that some companies will use to produce their approved products. Of course they can also develop custom packages and it is likely they have some "cookie cutter" packages of different performance categories that aren't approved (for racing oils and the like) but would be appropriate for other types of oils.
^^^
No doubt about this. However, I wonder if Lubrizol provides the additive packages for the ATF that Red Line Oil, AMSOIL, and Valvoline are selling, the Multi-Vehicle ATFs that is. Or do you think that it's Afton Chemicals? Sorry for the tangent.

Mobil and Shell of course don't deal with Lubrizol because they co-own Infineum.
So does BP/Castrol as they have a cross-licensing agreement with Infineum as far as I know. The amount of testing these companies do, with Mobil leading the pack, is mind-boggling.

I got my response from Red Line Oil. I asked about testing and the viscosity changes in UOAs for 0W-30 vs. 5W-30 lubes, as per our earlier discussion.

Here is what I got back:

Our High Performance Motor Oils are formulated by our Chemist with assistance from the various additive manufacturers.

Product testing and evaluation is conducted both locally and by outside labs.

Those two results could vary some due to the different conditions of each.

The 0W30 due to it’s broader viscosity could sheer down some though would still easily maintain an SAE 30 viscosity.

The 5W30 due it’s narrower is more sheer stable and as seen will tend to increase in viscosity, preferrable far as we are concerned.

Regards,

Dave Granquist
 
Interesting that oxidative thickening is "preferred", that's the first time I've seen that.
I always assumed that the 5W-X lubes they make are designed that way. Do you think it's oxidative thickening, or is it another chemical reaction? Someone who knows chemistry and lubes might be able to answer that one.

I think that's the most I'll get out of Red Line. I doubt they are open to further discussions about the design and manufacturing process for motor oils.
 
I always assumed that the 5W-X lubes they make are designed that way. Do you think it's oxidative thickening, or is it another chemical reaction? Someone who knows chemistry and lubes might be able to answer that one.

I think that's the most I'll get out of Red Line. I doubt they are open to further discussions about the design and manufacturing process for motor oils.
It's oxidation, as far as I know, that's the only mechanism that increases viscosity like that. @MolaKule could confirm though.
 
It's oxidation, as far as I know, that's the only mechanism that increases viscosity like that. @MolaKule could confirm though.
It's hard to contain my enthusiasm when it comes to speculation. However, I am making a conceded effort here, as you can see. :D
 
It's oxidation, as far as I know, that's the only mechanism that increases viscosity like that. @MolaKule could confirm though.
True, most oils thicken due to oxidative thickening.

With GDI and the current trend in injector programming, and the resulting increase in fuel dilution of engine oil, thickening would be preferred to excessive thinning in order to offset the thinning toward the oil's end of life.

"Oxidation Degradation of the Oil​

Oxidation is defined as a chemical deterioration of an oil that is the result of continued contact with oxygen and catalysts such as copper. Oxidation causes the oil to thicken or increase in viscosity. This leads to reduced oil flow and reduced heat dissipation, which in turn accelerates the oxidation process..."

 
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At what temperature would the oil start to thicken, and how far will it go? What would be the result if it goes on for a prolonged period?
Further info from Dong and Migdal's chapter on 'Antioxidants:'

"Oxidation produces harmful species, which eventually compromises the designated functionalities of a lubricant, shortens its service life, and to a more extreme extent, damages the machinery it lubricates. The oxidation is initiated upon exposure of hydrocarbons to oxygen and heat and can be greatly accelerated by transitional metals such as copper, iron, nickel, and so on. when present. The internal combustion engine is an excellent chemical reactor for catalyzing the process of oxidation with heat and engine metal parts acting as effective oxidation catalysts. Thus, in-service engine oils are probably more susceptible to oxidation than most other lubricant applications. For the prevention of lubricant oxidation, antioxidants are the key additive that protects the lubricant from oxidative degradation, allowing the fluid to meet the demanding requirements for use in engines and industrial applications."

Compounds of phenols, amines, and phosphorous comprise a majority of antioxidants.

To answer your questions (from the same chapter):

"...Under high-temperature oxidation conditions (>120°C), breakdown of peroxides including hydroperoxides becomes predominant, and the resulting carbonyl compounds (e.g., reactions 1.8 and 1.9) will first be oxidized to carboxylic acids as shown in Figure 1.6. As an immediate result, the oil acidity will increase. As oxidation proceeds, acid or base-catalyzed Aldol reactions take place. ...Initially, α,β-unsaturated aldehydes or ketones are formed, and further reaction of these species leads to high-molecular-weight products. These products contribute to oil viscosity increase and eventually can combine with each other to form oil-insoluble polymeric products that manifest as sludge in a bulk oil oxidation environment or as varnish deposits on hot metal surface. Oil viscosity increase and deposit formation have been identified to be the principal oil-related factors to engine damages." [Emphasis mine].

Rudnick L., Editor, Lubricant Additives Chemistry and Applications, Second Edition, CRC Press.
 
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Further info from from Dong and Migdal's chapter on 'Antioxidants:'
To answer your question (from the same chapter):

@MolaKule that you so much for that. As it pertains to Red Line Oil's engine lubricants, the weird thing @OVERKILL and I noticed is that their 0W-X engine oils shear down due to exposure to heat, while their 5W-X oils thicken from exposure to heat. I am wondering if this could be avoided somehow? Red Line wants me to believe that this behavior of the lubricant is by design. Isn't Polyol Ester and PAO supposed to have good oxidative stability? I'm not only asking out of curiosity but because I want to give their product another try. Thank you.
 
@MolaKule that you so much for that. As it pertains to Red Line Oil's engine lubricants, the weird thing @OVERKILL and I noticed is that their 0W-X engine oils shear down due to exposure to heat, while their 5W-X oils thicken from exposure to heat. I am wondering if this could be avoided somehow? Red Line wants me to believe that this behavior of the lubricant is by design. Isn't Polyol Ester and PAO supposed to have good oxidative stability? I'm not only asking out of curiosity but because I want to give their product another try. Thank you.
Do the 0WX's thin due to heat alone or are they thinning due to Viscosity Modifier (VII) shearing?

Esters have one disadvantage in that, in an environment of both heat and moisture, this environment can break their molecular bonds (ester molecule shown below), that is, they can hydrolize, or undergo chemical breakdown due to reaction with water. If molecular disassociation occurs, then the free oxygen atoms can add to the oxidation potential.

As Tom NJ stated below: Where the application environment may lead to hydrolysis, the ester structure can be altered to greatly improve its hydrolytic stability and additives can be selected to minimize any effects.


Ester Molecule.png



Tom NJ has a comprehensive explanation here:

 
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Do the 0WX's thin due to heat alone or are they thinning due to Viscosity Modifier (VII) shearing?

Esters have one disadvantage in that, in an environment of both heat and moisture, this environment can break their molecular bonds (ester molecule shown below), that is, they can hydrolize, or undergo chemical breakdown due to reaction with water. If molecular dissolution occurs, then the free oxygen atoms can add to the oxidation potential.

As Tom NJ stated below: Where the application environment may lead to hydrolysis, the ester structure can be altered to greatly improve its hydrolytic stability and additives can be selected to minimize any effects.


View attachment 85445


Tom NJ has a comprehensive explanation here:

Thank you again for this. I am reading @Tom NJ's post as I have time to pay attention and understand what I'm reading.
 
Crowley said:
bulwnkl said:
I thought Roy retired, and that was at least part of why Red Line was sold to C-P. Have I conflated 2 unrelated events?
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That's all I see from whatever you tried to post.
 
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