Redline 5w-20 / 9,700mi on oil / 2014 5.7 Hemi Durango R/T

[wpod]

I have a 2016 RAM 1500 with a 5.7 HEMI. So far, the engine has been flawless. Currently, I run Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 with a FRAM FS2 filter.

I use a magnetic drain plug with a powerful neodymium magnet. I also put neodymium magnets on the oil filter, around twenty small magnets. Currently, I don't have them on the FRAM FS2 because this filter is entirely coated with a material to make it easier to grip.

As such, I would say that using powerful magnets to keep ferrous contaminants being pumped back into the engine will somewhat skew those Fe values on the UOA.

What's your opinion? The cam and lifter problem is either quality control or oiling system design problems. Roller lifter flaw is the bearings.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

It would depend on the particle size and geometry. As you state, “somewhat” is probably accurate.

I'm babying this truck, and I don't intend to ever sell it. Lifter failure is undesirable, however, I'm trying to be cautious. If that happens, I hope that the magnets catch as much debris as possible. I was contemplating attaching neodymium magnets to the steel oil pan as well. It may or may not be a good idea. Otherwise, I had all the usual problems that trucks of this vintage come with, like broken exhaust manifold bolts leaking valve cover, both on the passenger side. I replaced the manifold, gasket, and bolts with brand new OEM parts, and the valve cover seal. The exhaust manifold is fine, the valve cover is now leaking from a different place. I am replacing the entire thing this time around with a brand new cover, gasket, and bolts with rubber grommets.

Oxidation numbers of virgin Redline oil is high due to their base oils. Look on the numbers in the voa postings. Redline oil can give for some reasons different uoa numbers that other oils.

RedLine has a higher ester content than other oils. Motor oils that contain higher amounts of esters will show higher oxidation numbers even in VOAs. BTW, that's not something Blackstone measures. POE should have good oxidative stability though. I've read many theories over the years, however, looking at the UOA in this thread, I don't see anything unusual when it comes to wear metals in his UOA when compared to other UOAs I've seen for the 5.7 HEMI. To get RedLine 5W-X to thicken like that, you have to run the oil repeatedly at around 250F or higher, at least that's what I've seen happen in HEMIs.

From RedLine's own website:

Q: HOW OFTEN SHOULD I CHANGE MY RED LINE OIL?​

It depends on how you drive. If you do a lot of city driving or low speed/low frequency driving, we recommend oil changes at 7500 miles. Vehicles that see more highway driving can go a maximum of 15,000 to 18,000 miles with an oil filter change in between. Modern filter technology and the latest, clean-burning fuels have reduced the solids that contaminate oil, so frequent filter changes aren't usually necessary.

What's your opinion? The cam and lifter problem is either quality control or oiling system design problems. Roller lifter flaw is the bearings.

The thousands and thousands of pages of endless discussions about lifters' issues and oiling systems is ridiculous, however, it comes up every time people talk about the HEMI. Even YouTubers like Uncle Tony and ReIgnited try to cash in on sensationalism to get more views. Personally, I'm no longer interested in the latest speculation as to why some HEMIs experienced lifter and/or cam failure. The HEMI is not a lawnmower engine that works with splash lubrication, nor will it run better if you install all non-MDS lifters and then enable MDS in the computer - yes, I saw this on ReIgnited on YouTube.

I believe that it's a supplier side issue affecting a small number of engines. The problem is exacerbated by the wonderful combination of high heat and thin 0/5W-20 oils. When you tow while going up a mountain, like the "Ike Gantlet" in Colorado (shown on TFL on YT), and you see oil temperatures upward 285F and you're running 5W-20, well you should know better. Don't expect a light duty truck to perform like a 2500/3500. It won't.

 

[buster]

RL is so shear stable that it generally only shows increases in viscosity. But there is more to it than just a significant amount of POE in the blend. Antioxidants are also important. I've gone back and forth numerous times with RL over the years based on very inconsistent UOA results. I'm still not sure what to make of it to be honest. I still don't think it's that good of an extended drain oil.

 

[kschachn]

I'm babying this truck, and I don't intend to ever sell it. Lifter failure is undesirable, however, I'm trying to be cautious. If that happens, I hope that the magnets catch as much debris as possible. I was contemplating attaching neodymium magnets to the steel oil pan as well. It may or may not be a good idea. Otherwise, I had all the usual problems that trucks of this vintage come with, like broken exhaust manifold bolts leaking valve cover, both on the passenger side. I replaced the manifold, gasket, and bolts with brand new OEM parts, and the valve cover seal. The exhaust manifold is fine, the valve cover is now leaking from a different place. I am replacing the entire thing this time around with a brand new cover, gasket, and bolts with rubber grommets.

When I performed UOA in college for our fluid power and automotive engineering departments we processed three analysis, one on the base oil, one on the oil after acid digestion and one on a digestion of the filter contents. That's really the only way you can properly detect imminent wear in a piece of machinery. Today's ICP machines have a much higher plasma temperature and the residence time is far higher than the old AA machine we used but still there is a limit to the particle sizes which can be detected.

Here is a good post by member edhackett on the limitations of ICP. Note his statement that the analysis is primarily for those metals in solution (which was also true for our old AA machine):

Hypothetical Question About Method Of UOA's

This came across my mind the other day about taking UOA's. On my Harley, there is a 'system' you can buy to run all the old oil out of the system during an oil change. It involves the use of a filter block and is a screw on 'cap' that fits where the oil filter is, and simply reroutes the oil...

bobistheoilguy.com

Also this chart I've lifted many times from a Machinery Lubrication article. It is primarily geared towards what particle size is a wear threat in an oil system, but it also shows that for imminent catastrophic failure where large(r) particles may be produced you need something other than a standard emissions spectrograph test.

 

[kschachn]

Oh and to add to that, these days people would probably use SEM/EDX on filter particles.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Also this chart I've lifted many times from a Machinery Lubrication article. It is primarily geared towards what particle size is a wear threat in an oil system, but it also shows that for imminent catastrophic failure where large(r) particles may be produced you need something other than a standard emissions spectrograph test.

Thank you for the information. Now I'm going down another rabbit hole and learning something new.

From a practical standpoint, and it's been said before here, by the time your test results get back, it might be too late. Per your information, I conclude that the amount of information depends on the lab that runs the UOA. My two cents: Blackstone might not be the best place to get the most information.

RL is so shear stable that it generally only shows increases in viscosity. But there is more to it than just a significant amount of POE in the blend. Antioxidants are also important. I've gone back and forth numerous times with RL over the years based on very inconsistent UOA results. I'm still not sure what to make of it to be honest. I still don't think it's that good of an extended drain oil.

Something tells me that RedLine Oil spends most resources on motor oil development and testing. At the very least they have to run some kind of in-house engine sequence testing. I will ask them specifically about that and post here what they say. I have yet to see engine damage from RedLine being changed once a year. There was a UOA here somewhere from a BMW that had RedLine in it for something like five years without being changed. It seems to me like a stable product. The only thing that bothers me is that they don't do the bare minimum like AMSOIL does and submit at least part of their lubes for OEM approvals.

 

[buster]

Something tells me that RedLine Oil spends most resources on motor oil development and testing. At the very least they have to run some kind of in-house engine sequence testing. I will ask them specifically about that and post here what they say. I have yet to see engine damage from RedLine being changed once a year. There was a UOA here somewhere from a BMW that had RedLine in it for something like five years without being changed. It seems to me like a stable product. The only thing that bothers me is that they don't do the bare minimum like AMSOIL does and submit at least part of their lubes for OEM approvals.

So I had asked them that before and their response wasn't clear to me. They don't have the resources to do it in-house like XOM/Valvoline or even Amsoil. I suppose they outsource it to SWRI or some other 3rd party. Maybe they use Philips 66 for that I don't know.

 

[buster]

The way I understand it is the blender (in this case Redline) works with an additive/base oil supplier. When RL develops an oil to their liking in-house, using a modified additive package they purchased, do they then have it put through the engine sequence tests to validate performance? This is where it gets a bit tricky.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

The way I understand it is the blender (in this case Redline) works with an additive/base oil supplier. When RL develops an oil to their liking in-house, using a modified additive package they purchased, do they then have it put through the engine sequence tests to validate performance? This is where it gets a bit tricky.

David Granquest from RedLine Oil said that the additive packages carry the OEM approvals.

So I don't know what to make of that.

 

[buster]

David Granquest from RedLine Oil said that the additive packages carry the OEM approvals.

So I don't know what to make of that.

hmm was he referring to their API approved line?

 

[Deleted member 89374]

hmm was he referring to their API approved line?

Nope, we were talking about their High-Performance Line. Their Professional line of rebranded Kendall lubes is API and Dexos licensed and all that.

I'm sure that RedLine Oil, especially now that they're part of Philips 66, does more than this guy when it comes to testing their own lubricants:



As I said, I will seek a bit more clarification about what kind of testing they do. I guess that their approach is to pick high-quality base stocks and additives to avoid having to spend big money on R&D so that they can save costs during production. I'd love to know what kind of internal testing they perform on their motor oils.

 

[OVERKILL]

David Granquest from RedLine Oil said that the additive packages carry the OEM approvals.

So I don't know what to make of that.

There's no way the "classic" Redline additive package has any OE approvals.

When you buy an approved additive package, you get to use those approvals, that's how AMSOIL's XL and OE oils are approved, they don't need to run the sequences, just buy an approved additive package.

The "old school" Redline white bottle additive package is like SL-era in additives. Way too high in concentration of certain additives to pass anything, which now, would have SP as their foundation.

 

[Accent Abuser]

RL is so shear stable that it generally only shows increases in viscosity. But there is more to it than just a significant amount of POE in the blend. Antioxidants are also important. I've gone back and forth numerous times with RL over the years based on very inconsistent UOA results. I'm still not sure what to make of it to be honest. I still don't think it's that good of an extended drain oil.

I wouldn't run it over 5k. It's good if you need a shear stable oil with extra HTHS under abusive driving conditions, it's also loaded with Molybdenum and great at cleaning up junk left behind from other oils.

The type of driving Redline is suited to is the kind of driving that will heat those esters up past 250°f and oxidize it. They're out of their mind recommending 20k intervals.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

There's no way the "classic" Redline additive package has any OE approvals.

I think you saw the little "brain exploding" emoji next to my comment. IMHO, unless that exact same additive package is used in an identical, and I mean 100% identical lubricant that actually carries approvals, it doesn't matter. Saying that because the additive package carries approvals, therefore the final product is suitable to be used where lubricants with said approvals are required, is just crazy.

Now, that doesn't mean RedLine is a bad product. However, it means that the answer they gave ... is bonkers. If they would have said that they conduct their own internal testing, well, that would have made more sense.

I hadn't had a chance to ask them yet, however I will later today, and insist specifically on the testing aspect. Not submitting their lubes for OEM approvals is one thing, but not testing it at all, that's hard to believe.

I wouldn't run it over 5k. It's good if you need a shear stable oil with extra HTHS under abusive driving conditions, it's also loaded with Molybdenum and great at cleaning up junk left behind from other oils.

The type of driving Redline is suited to is the kind of driving that will heat those esters up past 250°f and oxidize it. They're out of their mind recommending 20k intervals.

You are speculating and making a lot of assumptions there. What are you basing those assumptions on?

How does it help anyone that "it's loaded with Molybdenum"?

No motor oil is designed to "clean up" after previous motor oil, or the inside of your engine. It's designed to keep it clean, however, that's an entirely different matter.

 

[RDY4WAR]

They may use an API additive package and then top treat it. Maybe that's what Dave was referring to? Given the high calcium with little to no magnesium, it would likely be an older SL or SM add pack.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

They may use an API additive package and then top treat it. Maybe that's what Dave was referring to? Given the high calcium with little to no magnesium, it would likely be an older SL or SM add pack.

That's highly improbable. RedLine Oil has very close ties to Lubrizol. Their chief chemist, Roy Howell, worked for Lubrizol before moving to RedLine Oil in 1986. Their products are not randomly mixed base oils and additives. They work closely with Lubrizol to formulate the motor oils and other lubricants that they offer.

 

[RDY4WAR]

That's highly improbable. RedLine Oil has very close ties to Lubrizol. Their chief chemist, Roy Howell, worked for Lubrizol before moving to RedLine Oil in 1986. Their products are not randomly mixed base oils and additives. They work closely with Lubrizol to formulate the motor oils and other lubricants that they offer.

I didn't say they randomly mix base oils and additives. I said they start with an API add pack (from Lubrizol) and then top treat to get the Mo, Zn, and P levels they want. That's how most blenders do it. They don't blend from several different totes. They probably use 3 totes for the additive content with one being an API approved (likely older SL or SM) DI add pack, another being probably a 70/30 P/S ZDDP top treat to raise the Zn/P concentration into the 1100-1300 ppm range (if they don't just over treat the DI add pack to get this range which is possible given the high Ca content), and the last being an MoDTC (possibly a non-sulfur moly ester/amine as well) to raise the Mo concentration into the 550-700 range. That's a much more efficient way of producing formulated oils compared to blending in each individual additive which would not only be costly but time consuming. Very few oils are made with just top treatment, and they're usually specialized oils not commercially available to the general public.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

I didn't say they randomly mix base oils and additives.[...]

I will not speculate on how they blend their lubricants, as I have no valid information to base any reasonable opinion on.

All I could find about their facility is this Hagerty article: https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenance-and-tech/red-line-synthetic-microbrews-racing-oil/.

Given their close relationship with Lubrizol, it stands to reason that Lubrizol does most of their formulation, lab work, and testing. At the premium price that Red Line Oil products command, they can certainly afford to do it this way.

 

[OVERKILL]

They may use an API additive package and then top treat it. Maybe that's what Dave was referring to? Given the high calcium with little to no magnesium, it would likely be an older SL or SM add pack.

Yeah, that was my suspicion, it looks about SL-era but "fortified", so it wouldn't pass anything even remotely close to current.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Yeah, that was my suspicion, it looks about SL-era but "fortified", so it wouldn't pass anything even remotely close to current.

Somehow I doubt they use any API or API-derived additive schemas. European lubes don't use them either. They've been in business with Lubrizol for so long that I suspect by now Lubrizol maintains and updates a separate repository just for Red Line Oil.