Red Line Water Wetter

[cparksjr]

The thing most people don't realize is that only 1/3 of the heat "power" in fuel is actually used to make power to drive the vehicle.
Our view on water wetter type additives is if the vehicle is operating correctly, it is not needed in most cases. The main use is racing and street cars. If it is an older vehicle and the cooling system is marginal, the product type might help. The other area we see common use is for towing and/or people traveling in the mountains. The thermostat will regulate the system temp, but if it starts claiming about this the stat is wide open and the cooling system becomes overworked.

 

[Shannow]

440Magnum,
taking your "ideal" to the extreme, you would have combustion chamber walls at 100-110C...and ridiculous heat flows into the coolant, poor vaporisation, and diesel engines that wouldn't want to fire.

Look at all of the experiemntal economy engines, plus a lot of full horse racing engines. Cermaic lined combustion chambers et al, water jackets treated with sodium silicate etc. to STOP heat getting thrown into the cooling system.

I stopped using soluble oil 20 years ago for many of the issues that you mentioned, maling the hot spots around the exhaust hotter etc, but you certainly don't want to "improve" heat transferto "perfect", unless you are running coolant temperatures in the hundreds of degrees C.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
440Magnum,
taking your "ideal" to the extreme, you would have combustion chamber walls at 100-110C...and ridiculous heat flows into the coolant, poor vaporisation, and diesel engines that wouldn't want to fire.


No, not at all. The cylinder wall temperature is regulated by the rate of heat flow *through* the metal, which is not affected by the quality of heat flow across the metal-water boundary. Even in a "perfect" world where the water doesn't microboil or anything like that, there is also a resistance to heat flow from metal to water, too, so that the inside of the cylinder will remain FAR hotter than the coolant side of the metal. What you want to do is make the metal-water boundary uniform and controlled, eliminating hot spots and steam pockets, which are uncontrolled, engine load dependent, and unpredictable to the engine designer. In fact, steam pockets can lead to runaway overheating because the show up under high load/temperature which then reduces heat transfer, which makes the metal hotter, which increases the size of the steam pocket, which makes more metal get hotter, etc. That's why its SO important to keep oils and other contaminants out of the cooling system, because they aggravate that problem.

My point is that all of those heat transfer points should be as predictable and controlled as possible, allowing the engine designer to control everything via the cooling system design as much as possible.

 

[wiswind]

From what I understand, the goal of water wetter is to improve the heat transfer between the metal and the coolant.
So....inside the motor.......improves the transfer of heat INTO the coolant.
Inside the radiator ....improves the transfer of heat OUT OF the coolant.

From what I have read.....the red water wetter has additives in it that are designed to be used in just water.
It will not harm things if used in a coolant mixture...but may have some of the add pack separate (rust inhibitor) out.
This is what you see as the "oily" stuff.

Now.....Diesel water wetter......I believe it is purple.....is designed to be used in a coolant mixture...they use the same basic coolant mixture as in cars....but a heavy duty version.
So the diesel version might be what you want to put into the coolant mixture in your car.....to avoid the separation issue.
At least there was a post on this site a while back that mentioned this.

 

[aldead]

Water Wetter is suppose to lower the surface tension and this increases heat transfer rates at metal to cooling fluid, however the exact make up of the fluid being used is key. Fluids with lower surface tension will have reduced surface cavitation on the surface transfering heat (i.e. heat exchanger, cylinder walls, cylinder heads, etc...)

Has nothing to do with coolant temperature of entire cooling system, that is regulated by the thermostat.

Exact details require intimate knowledge of Thermal Dynamics, Heat Transfer and a bit of Fluid Dynamics.

 

[FloatingBrick]

Quote:
Exact details require intimate knowledge of Thermal Dynamics, Heat Transfer and a bit of Fluid Dynamics.


This conversation is way beyond me, but the OP may be interested in my practical application.

In the summer of 06 my 91 5.8 started overheating when idling for extended periods (longer than 10 minutes) in 95+ degree heat with the A/C on.

Prior to the super hot months, in 07 I added a bottle of Water Wetter (to basic green coolant). Since then (subsequent summers) I no longer have the overheating issue.

My friend in LA was experiencing high temps (no overheating, though) in his built 302 (Sunbeam Tiger). Based on my experience he tried Water Wetter (in a straight water application) and had a positive experience as well.

 

[dareo]

I use water wetter in my PC and it does help lower my CPU and graphics card temps vs plain water. Many people with watercooled PCs will use it and have good results. Do you need it in regularly used vehicles? Probably not.

 

[ZZman]

That sounds like a cool use! How much did it drop it?

 

[Mephy]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The concept of water wetter is antithetical to what you want in an engine cooling system for a street driven family car.

You want to keep the heat in, not speed it's dissipation into the environment.


Wait, wait, wait.... You're over-simplifying.

YES you want to REGULATE the heat dissipation to the environment in order to maximize thermal efficiency. But you DO want to move that heat FROM THE METAL TO THE COOLANT as efficiently as possible and THEN let the cooling system design regulate how fast the heat is dissipated to the environment. I'm not arguing in favor of water-wetter necessarily, but its goal is not at all the antithesis of what you want. Without perfect transfer of heat from metal to coolant, you get localized microboiling and hot-spots, which do two bad things: 1) hot spots can cause detonation, forcing the engine managment system to retard ignition timing and damage efficiency, and 2) microboiling can erode metal from the inside of the cooling jackets.

Once you get the heat out of the metal and into the coolant, the engine can be made MORE efficient by letting the cooling system do things like recirculate most of the hot water back to the block via the thermostat bypass system and only divert a small amount to the radiator, which has the benefit of heating up the lower part of the engine block which isn't exposed directly to the hottest combustion process, thereby making the entire engine structure a more uniform temperature than if you didn't get the heat out of the cylinder head metal and into the coolant effectively. This relieves stresses in the block, heads, and rotating assembly, closes up clearances between cylinder and piston skirt, and reduces further thermal loss from the combustion chamber as the piston moves away from TDC.

The closer you can get to ideal heat transfer from metal to coolant, the hotter you can make the AVERAGE temperature of the coolant in the whole system, because you are no longer having to over-cool most of the system in order to protect a few hot-spots that aren't getting properly cooled.

 

[deven]

Its all about surface tension.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: wiswind

Now.....Diesel water wetter......I believe it is purple.....is designed to be used in a coolant mixture...they use the same basic coolant mixture as in cars....but a heavy duty version.



Diesel coolant additives also are usually aimed at reducing micro-boiling and cavitation damage, as that is a much bigger problem in wet-liner diesels than in gasoline engines or dry-liner/monoblock diesels. Cavitation can actually fail a liner by eroding right through the cylinder wall and into the combustion chamber. Part of the trigger for cavitation is thermal, but some of it is actually acoustically initiated from the noise of the diesel combustion process.

 

[EMPIRE]

it works as advertised. physics aside, it does help reduce the water temp.

however, i like Royal Purple's "Purple Ice". in hot AZ i use a 80/20 mix of water:a-freeze and a bottle of purple ice. i highly recommend this mix in hot climates.

 

[deven]

This is what it claims to do:-
Water Wetter® Super Coolant


WaterWetter® is a unique wetting agent for cooling systems which reduces coolant temperatures by as much as 30ºF. This liquid product can be used to provide rust and corrosion protection in plain water for racing engines, which provides much better heat transfer properties than glycol-based antifreeze. Or it can be added to new or used antifreeze to improve the heat transfer of ethylene and propylene glycol systems. Designed for modern aluminum, cast iron, copper, brass and bronze systems.

· Doubles the wetting ability of water
· Improves heat transfer
· Reduces cylinder head temperatures
· May allow more spark advance for increased torque
· Reduces rust, corrosion and electrolysis of all metals
· Provides long term corrosion protection
· Cleans and lubricates water pump seals
· Prevents foaming
· Reduces cavitation corrosion
· Complexes with hard water to reduce scale

 

[Mr Nice]

What causes WaterWetter in some vehicles to turn the overflow tank into black slime ?

 

[badbrad358]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: wiswind

Now.....Diesel water wetter......I believe it is purple.....is designed to be used in a coolant mixture...they use the same basic coolant mixture as in cars....but a heavy duty version.



Diesel coolant additives also are usually aimed at reducing micro-boiling and cavitation damage, as that is a much bigger problem in wet-liner diesels than in gasoline engines or dry-liner/monoblock diesels. Cavitation can actually fail a liner by eroding right through the cylinder wall and into the combustion chamber. Part of the trigger for cavitation is thermal, but some of it is actually acoustically initiated from the noise of the diesel combustion process.


I have talked to the tech guys at Redline on this several times and the only difference in the Diesel vs. regular WW is that there are no corrosion inhibitors in the Diesel version, but there are in the regular. I'll mention the color is different too, but that's non-functional.

I have asked this several times because I was concerned about an interaction with my Nissan long-life coolant. The Diesel version has the surfactant only which helps the surface tension, which is what I've bought and will use.

The regular version is safe to use in water only and still help prevent corrosion, but it will not lower the freezing point. A lot of motorcycle guys use it on tracks where anti-freeze isn't allowed.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
it works as advertised. physics aside, it does help reduce the water temp.

however, i like Royal Purple's "Purple Ice". in hot AZ i use a 80/20 mix of water:a-freeze and a bottle of purple ice. i highly recommend this mix in hot climates.


I'm doing that exact mix very soon. It never gets "cold" in south florida and I have a feeling next summer is going to be scorching since this summer isn't so hot.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
What causes WaterWetter in some vehicles to turn the overflow tank into black slime ?

Not sure about black slime, but when I tried WW in my 2003.5 V-6 Camry (cooled with Toyota red), it very quickly developed an almost buttery slime, both in the rad filler neck, and in the overflow tank. Had them both flushed and refilled, and then tried the Purple Ice product. That stuff mixed right in, and never gave even a hint of a problem.

Timing of this thread is interesting. I just picked up a few bottles of RPPI. It mixed in fine (so far) with the ICE coolant in my hybrid Camry. After a couple days, and taking a deep breath, I also mixed it into the separate cooling circuit for the hybrid inverter. Per my Scan-Gauge-II, the car does seem to be running a tad cooler (previously, it would routinely spike above 200F, since adding the RPPI, it rarely approaches 200, but has gone above once). Nothing conclusive, but it seems "willing" to stay in "stealth" mode (electric-only drive) longer. The ECU monitors multiple parameters to determine when it will cut the ICE in and exit stealth mode. I can only see a few of them directly, but inverter coolant temp MUST be one of them. Perhaps this stuff is helping some.

 

[Ken2]

Rudolph Diesel's first prototype diesel engine had no cooling system. He wanted all the energy from the burned fuel to go to the crankshaft. Of course, it didn't work for long. We need cooling to protect the oil. When the oil overheats it no longer protects the metal, and we get metal-to-metal failures.

Any of the antifreeze products contains agents to do what Water Wetter claims. Water Wetter and similar products may do the job better, but I've seen no different when the stuff is used in antifreeze.

In warm winter and hot summer climates I'd use just water plus one of these products with corrosion inhibitors, surfactants, etc. There is no need for antifreeze. Miami doesn't get really hot does it? I mean Phoenix and Death Valley hot. Humidity doesn't count for machinery, just for flesh. Hot-humid-miserable isn't the same as 110°F+ hot.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: Ken2
. . .
In warm winter and hot summer climates I'd use just water plus one of these products with corrosion inhibitors, surfactants, etc. There is no need for antifreeze. Miami doesn't get really hot does it? I mean Phoenix and Death Valley hot. Humidity doesn't count for machinery, just for flesh. Hot-humid-miserable isn't the same as 110°F+ hot.


Oh yes, I'm aware of how it works. A couple summers ago, I flew into Ontario and drove the rest of the way to Edwards AFB to do a court-martial. None of our gulf coast stickiness, but furnace hot instead. Thusfar, this summer, I've seen triple digits on the outside temp gauge a couple times. Of course, my car is jet black, so I pay no attention to the reading until I've had at least five min of air flowing through the grille.

Very preliminarily, it does seem that my coolant temps are hovering lower with the RPPI than they were on the Toyota Pink alone.

 

[fito]

I have used it in a few of my Muscle cars and it did lower temps around 10 degrees.