recomenfation for 5.4 triton with startup clatter

[jaynissan12]

Originally Posted By: 1034
I'd check the timing chain guides (plastic/nylon) and tensioners- very common item on the Ford mod motors.
I think you'll find the problem there.


was that an issue with the 2valve design? I know it was noted with the 3valve design.

 

[Merkava_4]

What that engine needs is some assembly lube painted on the piston skirts before each start.

 

[mer]

I have a 2003 f-150 5.4 with same issue, i have changed guides & tensioners , no manifold leaks, use mc 5w20 full syn. oil , mc filter , low miles 65k, not a oil problem and AGREE that it is piston slap ... no harm in that , truck will probably make 200k.(2v engines do not have cam phasers.. which is another major problem.

 

[CHARLIEBRONSON21]

My old 97 5.4L expedition did that from about 120k up to 200+ never got any worse for me after it started doing it. Winter sounded like it was falling apart, but summer it still made noise.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
true, I wasn't saying it had them, I was saying be glad he didn't have that problem.


Your post us very clear. It says at least it isn't the cam phasers. Implying that there are cam phasers. Which as already mentioned this engine,as every 2v doesn't have any.

Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Originally Posted By: 1034
I'd check the timing chain guides (plastic/nylon) and tensioners- very common item on the Ford mod motors.
I think you'll find the problem there.


was that an issue with the 2valve design? I know it was noted with the 3valve design.


It's a potential issue with any chain guide made from nylon. As the chain rubs the guide wears.

I suggest quitting prior to getting anymore foot in your mouth.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted By: HankHill
2001 f-150 with 117k
motorcraft 5w-20 motorcraft oil f

On startup untill the motor is warm, I have a lot of valve train or lower end knocking noise. Sounds like a diesel motor untill it wsrms up.
I did have m1 5-30 in there at one point and the noise was there.

Im asking for suggestions for an oil that will perform better on startup.

Fire away!!


When did you first start hearing this? How long have you owned the vehicle?

 

[1034]

Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Originally Posted By: 1034
I'd check the timing chain guides (plastic/nylon) and tensioners- very common item on the Ford mod motors.
I think you'll find the problem there.


was that an issue with the 2valve design? I know it was noted with the 3valve design.

I believe so we replaced numerous sets on all the mod motors and the reason being that clacking on start up. Not really a bad job but perhaps a little intimidating for the first time DIY er

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Piston slap is not a lubrication issue......It is caused by the piston skirts being slightly collapsed, and expanding a bit when they warm up, keeping the piston from continuing to rock in the cylinder. Annoying, but not worth fixing, until something else makes you go into the motor (If ever).


They don't have to be collapsed, they just need to be loose fitting, like in the GM "slapper" engines, which made noise from the factory. Piston slap became an issue with the advent of shorter skirts and bulk-fit pistons. The "solution" was to coat the skirts, something Ford was doing and GM eventually did too.


I just assumed since it sounded like the motor did not always do this, that something changed. And some motors are known for piston skirts eventually losing close contact with the cylinder walls when cold, but expanding when hot.


Of interesting note: the coating on the pistons can eventually wear off, and then you hear the slap

Nothing needs to happen to the skirts for this to be the case, just enough miles/wear.

The Modular pistons, unlike their Windsor brethren, have very short skirts. AFAIK, they are not prone to deformity, but they, being of the bulk-fit variety, are, like the GM engines, prone to be loose(r) in the bores than the hand-fit engines, which also, coincidentally, had longer skirts, LOL! The coating on them usually works to keep them quiet (that's why it is there) but I don't know how much it takes to wear it off, may not be much

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: doublebase
I'll tell yeah I have heard of some horror stories regarding that 5.4 engine. Piston slap is normal on some GM engines, but piston slap on a 5.4 might mean something shortly down the road. I had a friend who just lost his 5.4 engine in his F150...80k miles...always changed the oil. I said, those things aren't a troublesome engine...he said, oh yeah, google it.


They aren't troublesome really, there are just a lot of them out there. Main issues are the timing chain guides on certain years (this affects the 4.6, 5.4 and 6.8L V10), ejecting spark plugs (affects same engines) and sticking spark plugs (effects the 3V variety) along with cracking exhaust manifolds in truck applications. The most common are the cracked manifolds (happens to basically everybody) followed by the ejecting plugs.

Internet amplification is a real problem for anything of mass production. Google anything that fits the bill and you'll find countless results on failures. Nature of the beast unfortunately. Just need to figure out how statistically significant it is, which makes it a "real" issue or not. The main issues I mentioned above are legitimate problems that 2V owners are likely to experience. The sticking plugs is a 3V problem that was eventually fixed too. I've launched a plug and had a manifold replaced on my 5.4L, which gets beat on like a red-headed stepchild and is coming up on 200,000 miles. It is not uncommon for the 4.6L engines in LEO and limo applications to crest 1/2 a million. They don't tend to have the manifold problem but they definitely have the plug launch issue.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: doublebase
I'll tell yeah I have heard of some horror stories regarding that 5.4 engine. Piston slap is normal on some GM engines, but piston slap on a 5.4 might mean something shortly down the road. I had a friend who just lost his 5.4 engine in his F150...80k miles...always changed the oil. I said, those things aren't a troublesome engine...he said, oh yeah, google it.


They aren't troublesome really, there are just a lot of them out there. Main issues are the timing chain guides on certain years (this affects the 4.6, 5.4 and 6.8L V10), ejecting spark plugs (affects same engines) and sticking spark plugs (effects the 3V variety) along with cracking exhaust manifolds in truck applications. The most common are the cracked manifolds (happens to basically everybody) followed by the ejecting plugs.

Internet amplification is a real problem for anything of mass production. Google anything that fits the bill and you'll find countless results on failures. Nature of the beast unfortunately. Just need to figure out how statistically significant it is, which makes it a "real" issue or not. The main issues I mentioned above are legitimate problems that 2V owners are likely to experience. The sticking plugs is a 3V problem that was eventually fixed too. I've launched a plug and had a manifold replaced on my 5.4L, which gets beat on like a red-headed stepchild and is coming up on 200,000 miles. It is not uncommon for the 4.6L engines in LEO and limo applications to crest 1/2 a million. They don't tend to have the manifold problem but they definitely have the plug launch issue.



I agree that Internet amplification is the problem. Let's really think about it. How many people Google or post about how good their engine is running,or how there's no problems. Likely none.
So I'm sure there's tons of complaints about every single engine ever produced. Now add to that the 5.4 has been put into tens of millions,or more,vehicles and there are going to be some problems with some of them.
I've seen many 5.4 engines in work trucks onsite and the owners aren't complaining. I can think of a stucco guy who uses his f-250 to drag his trailer that's got all his scaffolding,sand,bagged cement,mixer etc and that truck has like 450k the last time I saw him. And he's used it for work since new in 02-03,so the 2v engine did have the plug ejection issue but not much else.
Oh. And he's used a 20 grade since new too. Towing close to max limit in the city traffic is hard on everything yet his truck keeps plugging along.
He says it's not worth it to replace til the truck isn't worth fixing. He says even if he bought a newer one it would get beat to heck with dents and stuff because of what he hauls daily and woukd look like his present truck in a week. So why spend money on a nice new clean truck when it'll look like a beat up workhorse in no time.
Makes sense to me.

 

[95busa]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: doublebase
I'll tell yeah I have heard of some horror stories regarding that 5.4 engine. Piston slap is normal on some GM engines, but piston slap on a 5.4 might mean something shortly down the road. I had a friend who just lost his 5.4 engine in his F150...80k miles...always changed the oil. I said, those things aren't a troublesome engine...he said, oh yeah, google it.


They aren't troublesome really, there are just a lot of them out there. Main issues are the timing chain guides on certain years (this affects the 4.6, 5.4 and 6.8L V10), ejecting spark plugs (affects same engines) and sticking spark plugs (effects the 3V variety) along with cracking exhaust manifolds in truck applications. The most common are the cracked manifolds (happens to basically everybody) followed by the ejecting plugs.

Internet amplification is a real problem for anything of mass production. Google anything that fits the bill and you'll find countless results on failures. Nature of the beast unfortunately. Just need to figure out how statistically significant it is, which makes it a "real" issue or not. The main issues I mentioned above are legitimate problems that 2V owners are likely to experience. The sticking plugs is a 3V problem that was eventually fixed too. I've launched a plug and had a manifold replaced on my 5.4L, which gets beat on like a red-headed stepchild and is coming up on 200,000 miles. It is not uncommon for the 4.6L engines in LEO and limo applications to crest 1/2 a million. They don't tend to have the manifold problem but they definitely have the plug launch issue.



I agree that Internet amplification is the problem. Let's really think about it. How many people Google or post about how good their engine is running,or how there's no problems. Likely none.
So I'm sure there's tons of complaints about every single engine ever produced. Now add to that the 5.4 has been put into tens of millions,or more,vehicles and there are going to be some problems with some of them.
I've seen many 5.4 engines in work trucks onsite and the owners aren't complaining. I can think of a stucco guy who uses his f-250 to drag his trailer that's got all his scaffolding,sand,bagged cement,mixer etc and that truck has like 450k the last time I saw him. And he's used it for work since new in 02-03,so the 2v engine did have the plug ejection issue but not much else.
Oh. And he's used a 20 grade since new too. Towing close to max limit in the city traffic is hard on everything yet his truck keeps plugging along.
He says it's not worth it to replace til the truck isn't worth fixing. He says even if he bought a newer one it would get beat to heck with dents and stuff because of what he hauls daily and woukd look like his present truck in a week. So why spend money on a nice new clean truck when it'll look like a beat up workhorse in no time.
Makes sense to me.

I saw a fleet of ford 5.4s working as wind turbine service trucks in MN, all had around 100k, and were worked VERY hard, indifferent maintenance. no issues. my f250, 65k. cracked manifold. gonna throw some JBA headers on this summer and be done with it!

 

[rccsofla]

I have a 2004 Expedition with the 5.4 liter engine.Had the same issue.Put 4 oz. per gallon of marvel mystery oil into the gas and no more clatter on start up even after a week of sitting.May not work the same for you but did for me.

 

[jaynissan12]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
true, I wasn't saying it had them, I was saying be glad he didn't have that problem.


Your post us very clear. It says at least it isn't the cam phasers. Implying that there are cam phasers. Which as already mentioned this engine,as every 2v doesn't have any.

Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Originally Posted By: 1034
I'd check the timing chain guides (plastic/nylon) and tensioners- very common item on the Ford mod motors.
I think you'll find the problem there.






was that an issue with the 2valve design? I know it was noted with the 3valve design.


It's a potential issue with any chain guide made from nylon. As the chain rubs the guide wears.

I suggest quitting prior to getting anymore foot in your mouth.


You know, I went back and re-read my post. While I didn't mean to imply that it DID have cam phasers I can see how someone COULD take it that way. My bad on that and it wasn't intended. The post does not affirm or deny that it had cam phasers, I believe someone can take whatever they want from something and turn it into the way they want to understand it. I was clearly corrected that it was a 2valve design shortly after the post. Appreciate it. Call me out on it all you want if that is what makes you feel better.

Now for the nylon guides, it was a question as I didn't know if the guide set up was the same as the 3valve with them being nylon. Your agenda/agitation based on my first post clearly led a negative response to a QUESTION for my second post. My foot is no where near my mouth. If this is the best we can do on here in a DISCUSSION then posting here is clearly not in my future. Thanks and have a good day.

 

[OVERKILL]

The one theory I've heard regarding the guide wear issue revolves around the age of the moulds used to make them. Apparently when they are fresh the guides come out extremely smooth and as the moulds near the end of their useful life they are much rougher. The rougher guides wear quickly. When the guides are replaced (with new, nylon guides) the issue doesn't reoccur

As Clevy noted, this is not something exclusive to Ford or the Modular, there have been nylon guide failures on many engines including those from BMW. What I find interesting is that Ford only had the issue for a couple of years, so whatever the problem was, they fixed it.

 

[jaynissan12]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The one theory I've heard regarding the guide wear issue revolves around the age of the moulds used to make them. Apparently when they are fresh the guides come out extremely smooth and as the moulds near the end of their useful life they are much rougher. The rougher guides wear quickly. When the guides are replaced (with new, nylon guides) the issue doesn't reoccur

As Clevy noted, this is not something exclusive to Ford or the Modular, there have been nylon guide failures on many engines including those from BMW. What I find interesting is that Ford only had the issue for a couple of years, so whatever the problem was, they fixed it.


That is good info OVERKILL. There have also been guide failures in Nissan Engines causing timing chain slap, has been noted on the Nissan VQ40DE which I own and thankfully have not experienced yet. I know those are nylon as well. Replacing them fixed some of them, but with others the problem reoccurred later down the road until they went to a different composition of nylon for that engine.

 

[mer]

Does the noise seem to be on the right(passenger) side lower ? That's where my noise is from...

 

[jaynissan12]

Big discussion here:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/63939-5-4-cold-engine-knock-13.html

 

[RISUPERCREWMAN]

I have a friend with a 2002 F-350 work truck. He uses it for his tree cutting business. It looks like its been through WWII with well over 400K miles. He tells me it just keeps on rolling so why buy a new one. 5.4 2V motor.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Big discussion here:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/63939-5-4-cold-engine-knock-13.html



This post describes what I said earlier in the thread happened to Trav:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/63939-5-4-cold-engine-knock-13.html#post6302338

It was his cat. Sounded like rod knock! LOL!

 

[jaynissan12]

Yeah I read that in there too, exhaust systems can be funny sometimes. I never experienced it with any other engine though, weird albeit the one I experienced was the 3valve version. There was one guy in that discussion that described it as piston slap, according to him it ended up being just that, but instead of it being harmless, the engine threw a rod not long after. Makes ya wonder.