Rebuilt Trany in 03 Honda Odyssey, Honda DW-1 ATF

[onion]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Cooper
Yup, I believe it was a combination of the wrong fluid in a weak unit.


Well, Benjamming's Honda is probably the most documented. Here's one post, but he has many more on the same car: LINK

I will admit, his posts were one of the reasons I ended up putting Z1 instead of Amsoil in a friend's CR-V.

The wear metals went up with the Amsoil, and they went down with the RLI. It's pretty hard to argue that one.


No it isn't. That's just the Amsoil cleaning up metal left by other atf's. Right Pablo?

 

[Pablo]

Actually it's pretty interesting the MORE Amsoil he had in the tranny the more Fe dropped, and it continued to drop with RLI, which is another "WRONG" fluid. Pretty easy to argue with one car samples, as well.

Once again, selective reading on your part, Mr Onion. Not sure what you find funny, but I chuckle at your attempts. Whatever the motivation.

 

[Boss302fan]

JOD,

Most likely I am not having issues with any of my Honda/Acura is trannys because I drained the Honda Z1 fluid every 15K miles. After the warranty was up, I changed to Maxlife syn and so far zero issues.

I have no doubt that the problems Honda has had with certain trannys is because Z1 is [censored] ATF and many owners left it in to long. If you followed Hondas recommended maintenance you were screwing yourself.

Just curious, how many Hondas have you owned?

 

[Cooper]

I would have to agree that the service schedule for the transmissions in Honda's are far too long. That being said, they obviously knew that the Z-1 was a weak fluid, even though the correct ATF to use. I do believe that they realized this and had the DW-1 blended to meet those specs but with a better base fluid. The real conversation now shouldn't be whether Z-1 is a good fluid, but that if DW-1 is a good fluid. Amsoil may be a better base, but it isn't the correct formulation.

I understand Amsoil or any other universal fluid may "work" in a Honda. But, Honda has said time and time again, only Honda fluid meets the spec. First Z-1, and now DW-1. You can buy a lot of other fluids that are the same exact spec as other OEM's and not just a universal. ie..Mobil 3309. There is not one for Honda, hence why the OEM fluid is the only fluid to use.

 

[Boss302fan]

Hopefully DW-1 turns out to be a really good ATF. If it does then I would consider trying it...

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
JOD,



I have no doubt that the problems Honda has had with certain trannys is because Z1 is [censored] ATF and many owners left it in to long. If you followed Hondas recommended maintenance you were screwing yourself.

Just curious, how many Hondas have you owned?




2, but they were both MT's. A friend has an '03 CR-V which I'm helping out on with the service, and you'll find a recent post with me mumbling about valve adjustments... It had Z1 in it until 60K, and I just did a 3X drain and flush with Z1. The transmission has been trouble-free, but I've read of very few issues with the 4 speed in the 4 cylinder.

I'll also say that when I bought my Freestyle, the MDX was pretty much crossed off of the list because of the litany of transmission woes.

So, I'm agnostic on Honda, and have no real bias either way. I did research the fluid thing to death before I decided on what fluid to put in the CR-V. I'm slightly annoyed DW-1 was kept a big secret, because I'd have used that, but I also understand they need to get rid of old stock...

I strongly considered the Amsoil fluid, and I didn't think it would be a huge risk, but based on everything I read, my interpretation of it was that there would be more of a risk with it than with Z-1 changed regularly. That's my opinion. You're certainly welcome to your own, but dismissing DW-1 as junk at this point just doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm eager to see how it holds up in Cooper's rebuild.

Lastly, I'll give you this link which also contains some other linked threads. I don't have a Honda 5 speed auto, so it's not my worry, but to me this explanation makes the most sense: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/acura-tl-transmission-pressure-switches.112210/

So, while the fluid may shear (Honda) or not contain the correct additive pack (everything else except supposedly RLI), the pressure switches may be the actual cause of the failure--not the fluid.

 

[PandaBear]

If the tranny is still under warranty, use what the rebuilder said you should use. Most likely any fluid that's good for the app is fine, but if the rebuilder wants to get off by blaming you, you don't want to give it the excuse.

 

[Cooper]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
If the tranny is still under warranty, use what the rebuilder said you should use. Most likely any fluid that's good for the app is fine, but if the rebuilder wants to get off by blaming you, you don't want to give it the excuse.


My rebuilder put the DW-1 Honda fluid in it. It was a dry unit when it was put in, so it is at 100% DW-1 fluid. The rebuilder is fully aware of what fluid is in it and warranties it.

 

[mattd]

Interesting to see how the DW-1 fluid works in that transmission. I'm considering using this next time, as i am quite unhappy with the Z1 fluid in my 07 accord. Already had it changed once at 40k for converter shudder. It fixed it for a while, and now its slowwwwwly coming back. And of course, the honda dealer cant duplicate it again

Keep us updated.

 

[unixguru]

mattd, based on my personal experience changing 3qt of ATF in honda/acura and some toyota transmissions every 40k miles is definitely not enough. I know that honda recommends 60k miles for severe service, which is kind of laughable IMO.

If you compare GM recommendation they recommend changing fluid every 50k miles for severe service and most GM units take 8+ quarts.

Based on this I've come to a conclusion for myself to change honda ATF every 15-20k miles/2 years for severe service. I think that it might go as high as 36-40k miles/3 years with a lot of highway driving. But that is about a limit for 3-4 quarts of Z-1.

If ATF has only been changed at 40k, then I definitely think that it should be changed again after 3-5k miles (drain-refill). And then again after about 10k miles after a second drain-refill. That way you'll get most of your fluid exchanged in approximately 10-15k miles.

Let's hope DW-1 will prove itself as a better replacement for z-1. Though, personally I've never had any issues with Z-1 because it has been changed at relatively short intervals (up to 30k).

 

[wgtoys]

Originally Posted By: unixguru

Based on this I've come to a conclusion for myself to change honda ATF every 15-20k miles/2 years for severe service. I think that it might go as high as 36-40k miles/3 years with a lot of highway driving. But that is about a limit for 3-4 quarts of Z-1.


With Honda automatics, a fluid change means draining, filling, driving; then draining again and so of for at least three repetitions. It takes at least 9 quarts of fluid to do the job.

 

[unixguru]

If I'm not mistaken Honda considers a single drain-refill as a fluid change. That's what I meant by it. Of course if you do a complete flush (3 drain-refills) interval can be extended on a completely new fluid. I personally don't see any benefit of doing 3 drain-refills every 15-20k miles.

 

[bigmike]

The conclusion being Z1 is fine for use as long as you change it like you change your motor oil. That's what I do - 3 quarts drain/refill every OCI. It's a bit ridiculous, but at least it's an easy job.

 

[mattd]

Originally Posted By: unixguru
mattd, based on my personal experience changing 3qt of ATF in honda/acura and some toyota transmissions every 40k miles is definitely not enough. I know that honda recommends 60k miles for severe service, which is kind of laughable IMO.

If you compare GM recommendation they recommend changing fluid every 50k miles for severe service and most GM units take 8+ quarts.

Based on this I've come to a conclusion for myself to change honda ATF every 15-20k miles/2 years for severe service. I think that it might go as high as 36-40k miles/3 years with a lot of highway driving. But that is about a limit for 3-4 quarts of Z-1.

If ATF has only been changed at 40k, then I definitely think that it should be changed again after 3-5k miles (drain-refill). And then again after about 10k miles after a second drain-refill. That way you'll get most of your fluid exchanged in approximately 10-15k miles.

Let's hope DW-1 will prove itself as a better replacement for z-1. Though, personally I've never had any issues with Z-1 because it has been changed at relatively short intervals (up to 30k).


They were told by the honda tech line to perform 3 drain and refills. So i got the 9 quart service. Still sucks. If you have good luck with the DW1 i may consider using it. I also may consider the valvoline or pennzoil fluid recommended for honda vehicles also.

The transmission shifts great. I have no complaints there. My complaint is the torque converter "shudder". Occasionally when at certain RPM speed and in certain gears, it feels like you let the clutch out too fast on a manual transmission. Honda cannot duplicate it again. Thats why i had the fluid changed originally. Even went for a ride with the local area rep, and he was no help. Eventually i'm going to get tired of this and will go back before my warranty is up and will not leave that dealer without a new converter and/or transmission.

 

[thrace]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
The conclusion being Z1 is fine for use as long as you change it like you change your motor oil. That's what I do - 3 quarts drain/refill every OCI. It's a bit ridiculous, but at least it's an easy job.
I conclude something else.
My Odyssey went about 70K miles with Z1 only. Changed Z1 every 10,000 miles with a 3-4 qt drain and fill. No towing. No racint. I conclude that the Honda transmission and/or Z1 are poor.

 

[bigmike]

I'd rather not get into an inductive reasoning. Deductive reasoning tells me that there are numerous Honda ATs working just fine with Z1.

Replacing fluid earlier is just a hope to induce longer life, but it may be a false hope. Adding more filtration is under the same category. Both of which I did and continue to do.

Your experience isn't just an outlier though. We've heard of a rash of bad Honda ATs, especially associated with the V6 and during the last generation Hondas.

Hopefully, DW-1 works better for you, but (more importantly) the AT works better for you as well.