Reasoning as to why extended OCI oil filters might need better micron ratings than normal filters?

ZeeOSix

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Even Amsoil is open to lawsuits, so if they show claims of other products performance they better have the test data to back it up if someone like Toyota says their claim is wrong. No company with any brains and a few lawyers is just going to make false stuff up these days and get sued over it.
 
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If doing 3-5K OCIs, you don't need as good of an oil filter as doing 10~12K OCIs ... as an example. You would be keeping the sump contamination level under control by dumping the sump and using new oil when doing short OCIs.

Who knows how often the OCIs were conducted on these 500K mile engines. One thing that can't ever be proven with any valid test data is that dirtier oil is just as good or better than cleaner oil ... regardless of how long the oil is used. There are dozens of papers showing that cleaner oil always results in less wear. It's just up to each person to decide what they want to do in terms of keeping the oil clean as possible (and using the right oil viscosity for the conditions) if they are worried about engine wear.
*What about using a 15,000 ~ 20,000 mile oil filter for two or three OCI's ?
 
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To the OP, yes, better micron ratings would be preferred accross the board.
Fram Ultra seems to be the answer to this request.
Use Oem or a wix and sleep well at night if you’re doing 5-10k oci; longer go full synthetic.
Use OEM, avoid Wix XP - they stopped publishing micron ratings because it is worse than std. Wix. Use std. Wix if you must.

I don't think any engine is going to "fail" from a well-constructed filter with medium micron rating in 100-200k mi.
So, its not like Toyota is doing anything that would make a car fail. These aren't BAD filters, they just aren't the BEST.

Every part in a vehicle is scrutinized for cost, so if you could save $2 from every oil filter/car, for Toyota in america that means $4+Million additional profit.
If other parts in the vehicle will fail at 200k mi, why put in a filter meant to take the engine well beyond that?
 

ZeeOSix

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What about using a 15,000 ~ 20,000 mile oil filter for two or three OCI's ?
I'd only do that if I knew the filter was high efficiency per ISO 4548-12. From the test data we've seen in this forum, a lower efficiency oil filter will typically become less efficient as it loads up because the media can't retain captured debris very well as the delta-p keeps increasing.
 
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A Fram Ultra 20,000 mile rated oil filter run for 2 ~ 3 5,000 mile OCI's should be safe (even with soot producing GDI engines) ?
 
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A Fram Ultra 20,000 mile rated oil filter run for 2 ~ 3 5,000 mile OCI's should be safe (even with soot producing GDI engines) ?
100% yes.... soot is "sub-micronic"... no standard oil filter can remove soot (the particles are just too small).

Some large "depth" style oil filter can remove SOME soot, but generally never all of it.
 
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I was thinking about why my OEM Toyota filters, which are not designed to be used for crazy long OCI of 10K+ miles, have poorer filtering efficiency for smaller particles than the filters used for 15-20K intervals.

I'm clearly no oil expert, so please go easy on me if my theory is completely out of whack. LOL

The motor oil itself can suspend quite a large volume of particles without those particles damaging parts as long as they are below a certain size. My OEM filter can remove those larger particles and ignore the smaller ones, as long as the oil is never left too long to be fully loaded beyond its limit with smaller particles. If the oil is changed soon enough, those tiny particles never accumulated enough to cause engine harm, beyond just normal wear and tear.

If the oil is allowed to accumulate too many small particles, beyond what it can keep suspended, then they may increase engine wear.

For doing long OCI, the filter must take up some of the duty of keeping those small particles from loading the oil too soon before the oil change. Thus, the extended OCI filters having a much higher efficiency on smaller particles compared to cheaper/normal oil filters.

Would this explain why so many people who used the cheapest or average oil filters, along with normal/cheap oil, but doing so at shorter change intervals, can have engines that last 500K+ miles without any major rebuild of parts that would tend to wear out?

Then, would it also be right to say that for normal OCI, within OEM specs, one wouldn't be gaining any extra engine protection by using a high efficiency oil filter? Maybe even less protection if the flow rate and bypass specs are too far off from OEM spec on OEM filters?

My Toyota Denso-made oil filters I now use on 2 rigs, are considered to some of the "worst" in terms of micro efficiency, yet we all know, Toyota doesn't mess around when it comes to making their engines run for a long time. Did the engineers understand that filter efficiency below a certain threshold, using non-extended OCI, is a worthwhile tradeoff in order to have a filter that is less likely to go into bypass mode?

Please, let me know how wrong I am, which is probably all of it. But, I have been reading BITOG for years now, and this seems to be the general way these things work, right?
Thats why I now only use the OEM filter on my Accord. Honda recommends 12K beteween oil changes and 24K between filter changes. I used to always use Napa Platinum filters but Napa only recommends those filters for up to 7.5K.
Especially when you consider that the Honda OEM filter is $7 and the Napa Platinums are anywhere from $7-11, I just cant convince myself to not use the OEM filter.
 

ZeeOSix

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Thats why I now only use the OEM filter on my Accord. Honda recommends 12K beteween oil changes and 24K between filter changes. I used to always use Napa Platinum filters but Napa only recommends those filters for up to 7.5K.
The NAPA Platinum is their long OCI use filter, like the WIX XP.

Most filter makers say you can use their filters per the vehicle manufactuer's recommended service interval. Where does it state that the NAPA Platinum is only good for up to 7500 miles?
 

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The NAPA website link does say: "Vehicles' Oil Life Monitor, Owner's Manual Recommendation:". So if that allows to go over 7500 miles then it would allow a filter run for more than 7500 miles.

WIX (which is the same filter as the NAPA) says the filter is warrantied for the period recommended by the engine manufacturer, so that means they are confident it will run that long. So if Honda says the recommended OCI is 24K and you do that within a year, it would be considered appropriate by WIX.

I didn't look at NAPA's website for an actual warranty statement, but I'd think it would be similar to the WIX warranty statement (links below).



The “Warranty Period” is the service interval for filter replacements recommended
by the manufacturer of the engine or equipment.

Check this out. WIX says there will be filter or damage from a failed filter warrantly coverage if the wrong oil viscosity is used. So that means even if the failure was caused by the oil filter, WIX has an out if you used a different viscosity than the one recommended by the vehicle manufacture. That's a new one.

CONDITIONS
For filters, this limited warranty DOES NOT COVER:
• Use of motor oil other than the viscosity and type as recommended by the manufacturer of the engine or equipment.
 
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If you’re going to push out OCIs to extremely long distances (unless it’s a Honda), realize you are on your own as far as filter warranties go. I’ve done it with an (OG) Ultra, but not anymore (once the OGs are used up). The cost effectiveness just isn’t there when Champ/Luberfiner Ecores are ~$1.50 each on RA, and I cut them, use them for firestarters in the wood stove, & fish out/scrap the steel, so there’s no waste involved as far as I’m concerned. I’ll just change them every time…
 
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I was thinking about why my OEM Toyota filters, which are not designed to be used for crazy long OCI of 10K+ miles, have poorer filtering efficiency for smaller particles than the filters used for 15-20K intervals.

I'm clearly no oil expert, so please go easy on me if my theory is completely out of whack. LOL

The motor oil itself can suspend quite a large volume of particles without those particles damaging parts as long as they are below a certain size. My OEM filter can remove those larger particles and ignore the smaller ones, as long as the oil is never left too long to be fully loaded beyond its limit with smaller particles. If the oil is changed soon enough, those tiny particles never accumulated enough to cause engine harm, beyond just normal wear and tear.

If the oil is allowed to accumulate too many small particles, beyond what it can keep suspended, then they may increase engine wear.

For doing long OCI, the filter must take up some of the duty of keeping those small particles from loading the oil too soon before the oil change. Thus, the extended OCI filters having a much higher efficiency on smaller particles compared to cheaper/normal oil filters.

Would this explain why so many people who used the cheapest or average oil filters, along with normal/cheap oil, but doing so at shorter change intervals, can have engines that last 500K+ miles without any major rebuild of parts that would tend to wear out?

Then, would it also be right to say that for normal OCI, within OEM specs, one wouldn't be gaining any extra engine protection by using a high efficiency oil filter? Maybe even less protection if the flow rate and bypass specs are too far off from OEM spec on OEM filters?

My Toyota Denso-made oil filters I now use on 2 rigs, are considered to some of the "worst" in terms of micro efficiency, yet we all know, Toyota doesn't mess around when it comes to making their engines run for a long time. Did the engineers understand that filter efficiency below a certain threshold, using non-extended OCI, is a worthwhile tradeoff in order to have a filter that is less likely to go into bypass mode?

Please, let me know how wrong I am, which is probably all of it. But, I have been reading BITOG for years now, and this seems to be the general way these things work, right?
Supposedly Toyota (and Honda) favors flow rate over filtering efficiency for smaller particle sizes, to for their now 10,000 mile OCI's

I have to do 5,000 mile OCI's due to the wording in the owner's manual.
HiHy Skybox snow.jpg
 
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The NAPA website link does say: "Vehicles' Oil Life Monitor, Owner's Manual Recommendation:". So if that allows to go over 7500 miles then it would allow a filter run for more than 7500 miles.

WIX (which is the same filter as the NAPA) says the filter is warrantied for the period recommended by the engine manufacturer, so that means they are confident it will run that long. So if Honda says the recommended OCI is 24K and you do that within a year, it would be considered appropriate by WIX.

I didn't look at NAPA's website for an actual warranty statement, but I'd think it would be similar to the WIX warranty statement (links below).



The “Warranty Period” is the service interval for filter replacements recommended
by the manufacturer of the engine or equipment.

Check this out. WIX says there will be filter or damage from a failed filter warrantly coverage if the wrong oil viscosity is used. So that means even if the failure was caused by the oil filter, WIX has an out if you used a different viscosity than the one recommended by the vehicle manufacture. That's a new one.

CONDITIONS
For filters, this limited warranty DOES NOT COVER:
• Use of motor oil other than the viscosity and type as recommended by the manufacturer of the engine or equipment.
Or I could just use the Honda OEM filter, that is cheaper than a Napa Platinum and is actually designed by the manufacturer and meets their specifications for that OCI. *shrug*
 
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If you’re going to push out OCIs to extremely long distances (unless it’s a Honda), realize you are on your own as far as filter warranties go. I’ve done it with an (OG) Ultra, but not anymore (once the OGs are used up). The cost effectiveness just isn’t there when Champ/Luberfiner Ecores are ~$1.50 each on RA, and I cut them, use them for firestarters in the wood stove, & fish out/scrap the steel, so there’s no waste involved as far as I’m concerned. I’ll just change them every time…
and thats why I stopped using the Napa filters. I used them for years on other vehicles that Ive owned but those were only 5K OCIs. If I run even a Napa Platinum 12K miles and have an issue that is traced back to the filter failing, Napa is going to tell me, "too bad, so sad" once they know that I ran the filter past 7500 miles.
Like I said, for $7 I could just buy the Honda OEM filter and if I use the OEM filter and follow the maintenance schedule that is outlined in the owner's manual, there really is nothing that they can hold against me.
Its the same with the Hyundai. Its still under 100K, so I always use the Hundai OEM filter and change the oil every 5K, like they recommend. I also keep all my reciepts so that they cant deny me a warranty claim should I ever need it use it.
 

ZeeOSix

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Supposedly Toyota (and Honda) favors flow rate over filtering efficiency for smaller particle sizes, to for their now 10,000 mile OCI's.
"Favors flow rate over filtering efficiency" really isn't a thing due to the fact that a positive displacement oil pump forces oil through the oiling system. Honda most likely uses low efficiency oil filters because their maintenance schedule can allow the filter to be ran many miles.
 
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Where are you seeing those?
I think BITOGers tend to emphasize the extremes of engine life instead of focusing on the more realistic average engine life span.

Ex. On one hand, too many pretend that a 10K OCI means the engine will barely make 100k miles, while on the other hand, too many pretend if you pick just the right OCI, oil, and filter it means 500K miles will be easy.

In reality, I think simply following the manufacturer's OCI, engine oil cert requirement, and using a good quality oil filter will 99% of the time give most people an engine life span somewhere between these extremes in the 200-300k miles range and the death of that engine may have nothing to do with oil anyway.
 
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I could, but would rather give the money to The American Cancer Society.
Thinking more about this, why do I have to provide proof against Amsoil’s claim? Remember around here that isn’t how it’s done. They at least should have the original lab reports,like a Blackstone report, not their own blurb, which is second hand information. Anyone can say whatever they want, not first hand information. They need to test many filters and sizes, like Fram. Not as trustworthy.
Because they've already proven it, so if you refute it then the owness is on you. I believe they used Southwest Research Institute to do the tests.
 
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