Picked up Mobil 1 5W-30 @ WalMart today
They only had Fram oil filters for my car so I bought that brand.
They only had Fram oil filters for my car so I bought that brand.
Questions from a new guy with a new car...
- Thread starter SanTropez1971
- Start date
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My Slogan: Wal-Mart for oil, somewhere else for filter...
You must work for these snake oil sellers....if not...good luck on reaching 50000 miles
Because I don't think it will last..let's see some used oil analysis ## ...some VOA...Also to try this without a Bypass filter...
[ September 09, 2003, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
Here is a post by Irvine on another board , so you can see where they are coming from
Great oil change tutorial! I'd like to make a few comments that I think are important.
Ford's Motorcraft oil is called a semi-synthetic because they include some Group III petroleum and this allows their oil to survive a more stringent level of testing. If the oil you buy does not specifically say that it meets Ford's extended spec, the oil is not sufficient for the PZEV or Zetec.
There is nothing sacred about using 5W20 in the engine. It is an absolute minimum level viscosity oil that will not protect as well as a thicker viscosity oil that has an identical quality additive package. 20W is 20W and by definition, it provides a less durable film to keep engine parts from contacting each other. The arguments about closer tolerances and smaller oil galleries are specious at best. When an engine is designed, they have to allow for a viscosity increase as the additive package depletes since the volatility of the oil increases and the the concentration of sludge increases. The API still considers an oil fit for service until the oil exceeds 300% of the original viscosity.
The important thing to keep in mind about one's choice of oil is the viscosity index, that is, the ability of the oil to maintain its viscosity in the presence of cold or heat so that it can quickly flow where its needed and provide the necessary durable film of protection. Obviously, the additive package must be of very high quality to maintain the oil's performance. This is where the synthetics come in. They have a more durable basestock which is less reactive to blow-by gases which is the Achilles Heal of dino oil. It has been a while since I last bought dino oil but I think it's still around a $1-$1.50 a quart. After the costs of manufacture, transport, marketing, and retail dealer markup have been factored in, how much is left for a durable additive package. Not much!
Ford's 5W20 spec is a minimum spec. So long as the additive package is robust to maintain the properties of the oil, you can safely use a higher viscosity oil. What's OK? 0W30, 5W50, 5W30, all of these are OK. 20W50 is not OK. The low end of the viscosity spec should be 5W or below and the upper, 20W or higher. I use a 5W50 oil year 'round. I have never had a problem because the oil has an extremely durable additive package and flows readily at temperatures at which dino oil would be almost gease-like.
Better quality additive packages have an important quality. They will almost always require less of the volume in a quart of oil to provide the required protection. Low cost dino oils have a cheap additive package and take up to 20% of the volume of the oil. Why is this important? Because they have no lubricating properties of their own in most cases, consequently the lubrication properties of the oil are "watered down". Under difficult conditions, which almost all of us impose on our engines, this can make a real difference in the quality of service we receive from the engine. Even for synthetic oils, this is true. The reality is that only a small portion of the motoring public knows or even cares about synthetics so they are a tough sale. Total share for synthetics in the market place is 4-5%. To compete with dino oil, the additive package is not as robust as it could be to keep prices down. Not many know that Mobil never made a profit with Mobil 1 losing on average about 15 cents per quart and this is generally, the cheapest of the true synthetics which include Redline, Eon, Amsoil and SynLube.
If the best, long term service is required, use a 5W30 or better true synthetic. I believe you can safely use these oils for about twice the severe service interval of a dino oil. For an oil like SynLube which is made to an altogether different standard, oil changes can be spaced at 3000 hour intervals or up to 150K miles. Of course, the tried and true method of replacing dino oil at 2.5-3K mile intervals still works too as many here will attest but with ever more stringent emissions standards coming into effect, the difficulty of getting good 'ole Group II to work with modern engines is getting very difficult. Synthetic lubes are the future.
Finally, there is no break-in period for modern engines. To provide the emissions performance modern standards require, the parts have to be perfectly mated to one another when the car comes out the factory door. 5W20 is not a "break-in" oil like it might have been in past years. I switched my ZX3 to synthetic (SynLube) at 1271 miles. During the remaining 18K+ miles I had it, it only consumed 9.5 ounces of oil (about 62K miles per quart) and the oil was not changed. When a shiny SVT lured me into the showroom once again, I converted this car at 668 miles. Again, the level of oil consumption is almost non-existant. I know of one owner with similar experience who converted her PZEV engine at 27 miles.
Now that engines are being designed for longer and longer maintenance-free intervals, why are we still using oils that have to be changed just about every time we turn around? Advanced oil technologies are here and our modern engines need them.
Great oil change tutorial! I'd like to make a few comments that I think are important.
Ford's Motorcraft oil is called a semi-synthetic because they include some Group III petroleum and this allows their oil to survive a more stringent level of testing. If the oil you buy does not specifically say that it meets Ford's extended spec, the oil is not sufficient for the PZEV or Zetec.
There is nothing sacred about using 5W20 in the engine. It is an absolute minimum level viscosity oil that will not protect as well as a thicker viscosity oil that has an identical quality additive package. 20W is 20W and by definition, it provides a less durable film to keep engine parts from contacting each other. The arguments about closer tolerances and smaller oil galleries are specious at best. When an engine is designed, they have to allow for a viscosity increase as the additive package depletes since the volatility of the oil increases and the the concentration of sludge increases. The API still considers an oil fit for service until the oil exceeds 300% of the original viscosity.
The important thing to keep in mind about one's choice of oil is the viscosity index, that is, the ability of the oil to maintain its viscosity in the presence of cold or heat so that it can quickly flow where its needed and provide the necessary durable film of protection. Obviously, the additive package must be of very high quality to maintain the oil's performance. This is where the synthetics come in. They have a more durable basestock which is less reactive to blow-by gases which is the Achilles Heal of dino oil. It has been a while since I last bought dino oil but I think it's still around a $1-$1.50 a quart. After the costs of manufacture, transport, marketing, and retail dealer markup have been factored in, how much is left for a durable additive package. Not much!
Ford's 5W20 spec is a minimum spec. So long as the additive package is robust to maintain the properties of the oil, you can safely use a higher viscosity oil. What's OK? 0W30, 5W50, 5W30, all of these are OK. 20W50 is not OK. The low end of the viscosity spec should be 5W or below and the upper, 20W or higher. I use a 5W50 oil year 'round. I have never had a problem because the oil has an extremely durable additive package and flows readily at temperatures at which dino oil would be almost gease-like.
Better quality additive packages have an important quality. They will almost always require less of the volume in a quart of oil to provide the required protection. Low cost dino oils have a cheap additive package and take up to 20% of the volume of the oil. Why is this important? Because they have no lubricating properties of their own in most cases, consequently the lubrication properties of the oil are "watered down". Under difficult conditions, which almost all of us impose on our engines, this can make a real difference in the quality of service we receive from the engine. Even for synthetic oils, this is true. The reality is that only a small portion of the motoring public knows or even cares about synthetics so they are a tough sale. Total share for synthetics in the market place is 4-5%. To compete with dino oil, the additive package is not as robust as it could be to keep prices down. Not many know that Mobil never made a profit with Mobil 1 losing on average about 15 cents per quart and this is generally, the cheapest of the true synthetics which include Redline, Eon, Amsoil and SynLube.
If the best, long term service is required, use a 5W30 or better true synthetic. I believe you can safely use these oils for about twice the severe service interval of a dino oil. For an oil like SynLube which is made to an altogether different standard, oil changes can be spaced at 3000 hour intervals or up to 150K miles. Of course, the tried and true method of replacing dino oil at 2.5-3K mile intervals still works too as many here will attest but with ever more stringent emissions standards coming into effect, the difficulty of getting good 'ole Group II to work with modern engines is getting very difficult. Synthetic lubes are the future.
Finally, there is no break-in period for modern engines. To provide the emissions performance modern standards require, the parts have to be perfectly mated to one another when the car comes out the factory door. 5W20 is not a "break-in" oil like it might have been in past years. I switched my ZX3 to synthetic (SynLube) at 1271 miles. During the remaining 18K+ miles I had it, it only consumed 9.5 ounces of oil (about 62K miles per quart) and the oil was not changed. When a shiny SVT lured me into the showroom once again, I converted this car at 668 miles. Again, the level of oil consumption is almost non-existant. I know of one owner with similar experience who converted her PZEV engine at 27 miles.
Now that engines are being designed for longer and longer maintenance-free intervals, why are we still using oils that have to be changed just about every time we turn around? Advanced oil technologies are here and our modern engines need them.
So who is this guy and what data does he have to make those statements?
There is a case for synthetics, but still too many cars go to the junkyard with good engines and dino in the crankcase.
There is a case for synthetics, but still too many cars go to the junkyard with good engines and dino in the crankcase.
So..
My Fram Filter = The Suck
Well?
My Fram Filter = The Suck
Well?
I can go more miles, on less money, thank you!
Ok, back to the topic at hand
For Kansas City weather, and what you described as your driving habits, I'd say 10W-30 Mobil 1 at about 4,000-5,000 mile drain intervals would get you about as much engine life as your going to get with any oil/drain interval combo. I say 10w-30 over 5w-30 because it's not going to get below 0 in Kansas City on a regular basis, and 10w seems to produce better wear as per Used oil analysis.
From C. Philip Houck on 2 May 2003:
Thank you for your response. I appreciate your consideration of SynLube. I would however like to offer so additional food for thought as to why I believe SynLube would work just fine in your engine.
1) SynLube is a 5W50 oil but that doesn't mean your engine can't use it. I had 18K miles on my ZX3 during the course of 1.5 years of driving. Though we don't have the extremes of weather you have in West Virginia (I think that's where you are. Am I right?) it never failed to provides less than full protection. Even though 18K miles
is not much distance in relation to the total life of an engine, it is probably enough to reveal any problems with using SynLube and there were none. As you know Ford specifies a 5W20 weight oil for the engine.
Moreover, my understanding of viscosity may be different than yours. It is my belief that a 5W50 oil flows like a 5 weight oil at low temperatures and has the film strength of a 50 weight oil. It does not mean that the oil is actually that thick. The viscosity index of SynLube is 200 which is higher than any other oil, dino or synthetic I am familiar with. This high index makes the oil less prone to viscosity change with temperature than other oils. I believe therefore that your engine would use SynLube without problem.
On my Focus SVT which must idle high as soon as the engine starts to minimize emissions, SynLube never exhibited any problems at all this winter. I installed the oil at 668
miles. I have had no oil consumption since that time with about 3K miles on the oil.
SynLube is recommended for all engines except Mazda rotary engines. SynLube offers a 300K warranty for new cars maintained according to the guideslines SynLube
establishes for the car for any oil-related problems.
2) SynLube does contain PTFE but it is not a question of whether there is PTFE in the oil that's critical. It is its implementation in the lubricant that's important.
PTFE comes in a number of different forms and this is extemely important as to whether the PTFE is helpful or detrimental to the engine. I discussed this with Miro
Kefurt of SynLube who had the following comments:
"We do not use DuPont since they do not have Teflon in "colloidal" size, but they have other products such as Fluon, and few others, that if you take time to go to
DuPont site you will find are specifically made for use in oil additives.
We use Nanoflon which is 0.3 to 1.2 microns [red blood cells are 7.5 microns] and looks like an egg under 400X magnification, both SIZE, SHAPE and surface charge make
[a] difference.
The MAJOR reason why we use PTFE in SynLube is that engines have [a] measurable reduction in noise (dB levels), as for wear reduction, in [an] "objective" controlled test we would have to run 15 to 30 vehicles for 15 years to have "scientifically" and "statistically" recognized proof.
For now 22 years of research and over 45,000 cars that have our products in them are good enough proof both for us and for [the] FTC.
[Fifteen] years ago DuPont Teflon were chips from rod machining in 400 mesh size and they indeed block filters and settle in oil pan they are 2,000 to 2,500 times LARGER
than the Nanoflon in SynLube - and further their surface charge is uneven so they tend to agglomerate to much bigger globs even visible by naked eye. ..."
SynLube implementation of colloidal solids is very important because the solids do not fall out of suspension because SynLube is a hydrophilic sol, that is the solids
are electrically attracted to the liquid lubricants at the molecular level. The problems that arose with products like Petrolon (Slick 50) do not apply with SynLube.
One final point: SynLube's website is a bit unfortunate. Miro's a lubrication specialist not a webmaster. His means of communication is a bit idiosyncratic too. Still I would contend that his website is worth a second look. He offers a wealth of objective information about viscosity principles and other information which I believe to be very valuable for anyone interested in knowing more about lubrication.
One could spend hours reading all this information. When I was considering SynLube, I had many of the same reservations you and others have expressed. Reading the
information on his site gave me confidence that the SynLube formulation makes sense.
There now, I've said my piece. I hope you understand that rather than trying to browbeat people into using SynLube, my real purpose is simply to get them to know what it really is. After that, they can make their own decision. Too often, I am faced with the response: "Ah, so it contains PTFE, must be snake oil, you better get
some real oil before your engine explodes!"
Please send me a mailing address where I can send a check. I don't have a Paypal account. Initially, I decided not to contribute because I was disappointed in the choice of Mobil 1 but since you've spent so much time answering my concerns, the least I can do is pay for an oil analysis.
Thanks!
From C. Phillip Houck on 17 March 2003:
I think the study that you are going to do will be great. I have believed that it is possible to extend oil drains while maintaining a higher level of engine
protection than that which is provided by petroleum lubricants for some time. I also believe one can save money, time, and reduce the environmental impact of
a car by reducing waste oil.
The trouble with the study is that it begins with Mobil 1. This oil isn't even recommended by the manufacturer to be used beyond the OEM recommendation for changing dino oil. The vast majority of cars out there can last 200K miles
with regular oil changes, even if it's plain motor oil providing that the oil is changed in keeping with the useage, i.e. change intervals related to the severity of service.
The study you'll conduct will only be valuable if you can demonstrate that synthetics substantially extend the quality and breadth of protection so that the engine is totally protected for less money and less maintenance time while at the same time reducing the amount of waste oil produced which is difficult to dispose of and dangerous too because of it being a known carcinogen.
I found a company that shares my beliefs. It is SynLube and they state their oil will last 150K miles, 3000 hours, or 10 years, whichever comes first. It is a maintenance oil which means that you add either "Service Fill" for low oil consumption cars or "Add oil" for normal consumption cars. Their oil filters (made by GM) last 2-5 years. When it's time to change the oil, you can take the used oil and send it back to the company where they will microfilter it and restore the additive balance. The end result is an oil meeting new oil specs and ready for the same service all over again.
Of course I use this oil. I have not had time to build up a huge amount of miles but what mileage I have (about 20K miles) indicates that the oil works very well. In my previous car which I traded in at 20K miles, I had 18K miles on the SynLube oil. In that time, I only consumed 9.5 ounces of oil which works out to 62K miles per quart. In addition, over the course of 100K miles, I would have saved hundreds of dollars, about 24 hours of maintenance time and almost 150 quarts of waste oil.
I have no connection with the company other than that of a satisfied customer.
I will be glad to make a donation to your experiment though I have no Paypal account. I'm with NetBank. What do you suggest considering I don't want to open an account with Paypal just for this one transaction?
Response from thread
If the main reason for using PTFE is to reduce engine noise, then we'd be a lot happier if they'd just leave it out. We have no data that specifically condemns SynLube; indeed, we cannot find any data on SynLube, pro or con, anywhere at all except from SynLube themselves. At this time we consider SynLube too high a risk to test. We would sure like to see some objective data to evaluate it. If SynLube would like to publicly demonstrate the abilities of their product, they can either post bond for the cost of an engine to 200,000 miles, or they can provide us with their own test car (maybe one of those little Russian Oka cars they sell) for the duration of the test.
Thank you for your response. I appreciate your consideration of SynLube. I would however like to offer so additional food for thought as to why I believe SynLube would work just fine in your engine.
1) SynLube is a 5W50 oil but that doesn't mean your engine can't use it. I had 18K miles on my ZX3 during the course of 1.5 years of driving. Though we don't have the extremes of weather you have in West Virginia (I think that's where you are. Am I right?) it never failed to provides less than full protection. Even though 18K miles
is not much distance in relation to the total life of an engine, it is probably enough to reveal any problems with using SynLube and there were none. As you know Ford specifies a 5W20 weight oil for the engine.
Moreover, my understanding of viscosity may be different than yours. It is my belief that a 5W50 oil flows like a 5 weight oil at low temperatures and has the film strength of a 50 weight oil. It does not mean that the oil is actually that thick. The viscosity index of SynLube is 200 which is higher than any other oil, dino or synthetic I am familiar with. This high index makes the oil less prone to viscosity change with temperature than other oils. I believe therefore that your engine would use SynLube without problem.
On my Focus SVT which must idle high as soon as the engine starts to minimize emissions, SynLube never exhibited any problems at all this winter. I installed the oil at 668
miles. I have had no oil consumption since that time with about 3K miles on the oil.
SynLube is recommended for all engines except Mazda rotary engines. SynLube offers a 300K warranty for new cars maintained according to the guideslines SynLube
establishes for the car for any oil-related problems.
2) SynLube does contain PTFE but it is not a question of whether there is PTFE in the oil that's critical. It is its implementation in the lubricant that's important.
PTFE comes in a number of different forms and this is extemely important as to whether the PTFE is helpful or detrimental to the engine. I discussed this with Miro
Kefurt of SynLube who had the following comments:
"We do not use DuPont since they do not have Teflon in "colloidal" size, but they have other products such as Fluon, and few others, that if you take time to go to
DuPont site you will find are specifically made for use in oil additives.
We use Nanoflon which is 0.3 to 1.2 microns [red blood cells are 7.5 microns] and looks like an egg under 400X magnification, both SIZE, SHAPE and surface charge make
[a] difference.
The MAJOR reason why we use PTFE in SynLube is that engines have [a] measurable reduction in noise (dB levels), as for wear reduction, in [an] "objective" controlled test we would have to run 15 to 30 vehicles for 15 years to have "scientifically" and "statistically" recognized proof.
For now 22 years of research and over 45,000 cars that have our products in them are good enough proof both for us and for [the] FTC.
[Fifteen] years ago DuPont Teflon were chips from rod machining in 400 mesh size and they indeed block filters and settle in oil pan they are 2,000 to 2,500 times LARGER
than the Nanoflon in SynLube - and further their surface charge is uneven so they tend to agglomerate to much bigger globs even visible by naked eye. ..."
SynLube implementation of colloidal solids is very important because the solids do not fall out of suspension because SynLube is a hydrophilic sol, that is the solids
are electrically attracted to the liquid lubricants at the molecular level. The problems that arose with products like Petrolon (Slick 50) do not apply with SynLube.
One final point: SynLube's website is a bit unfortunate. Miro's a lubrication specialist not a webmaster. His means of communication is a bit idiosyncratic too. Still I would contend that his website is worth a second look. He offers a wealth of objective information about viscosity principles and other information which I believe to be very valuable for anyone interested in knowing more about lubrication.
One could spend hours reading all this information. When I was considering SynLube, I had many of the same reservations you and others have expressed. Reading the
information on his site gave me confidence that the SynLube formulation makes sense.
There now, I've said my piece. I hope you understand that rather than trying to browbeat people into using SynLube, my real purpose is simply to get them to know what it really is. After that, they can make their own decision. Too often, I am faced with the response: "Ah, so it contains PTFE, must be snake oil, you better get
some real oil before your engine explodes!"
Please send me a mailing address where I can send a check. I don't have a Paypal account. Initially, I decided not to contribute because I was disappointed in the choice of Mobil 1 but since you've spent so much time answering my concerns, the least I can do is pay for an oil analysis.
Thanks!
From C. Phillip Houck on 17 March 2003:
I think the study that you are going to do will be great. I have believed that it is possible to extend oil drains while maintaining a higher level of engine
protection than that which is provided by petroleum lubricants for some time. I also believe one can save money, time, and reduce the environmental impact of
a car by reducing waste oil.
The trouble with the study is that it begins with Mobil 1. This oil isn't even recommended by the manufacturer to be used beyond the OEM recommendation for changing dino oil. The vast majority of cars out there can last 200K miles
with regular oil changes, even if it's plain motor oil providing that the oil is changed in keeping with the useage, i.e. change intervals related to the severity of service.
The study you'll conduct will only be valuable if you can demonstrate that synthetics substantially extend the quality and breadth of protection so that the engine is totally protected for less money and less maintenance time while at the same time reducing the amount of waste oil produced which is difficult to dispose of and dangerous too because of it being a known carcinogen.
I found a company that shares my beliefs. It is SynLube and they state their oil will last 150K miles, 3000 hours, or 10 years, whichever comes first. It is a maintenance oil which means that you add either "Service Fill" for low oil consumption cars or "Add oil" for normal consumption cars. Their oil filters (made by GM) last 2-5 years. When it's time to change the oil, you can take the used oil and send it back to the company where they will microfilter it and restore the additive balance. The end result is an oil meeting new oil specs and ready for the same service all over again.
Of course I use this oil. I have not had time to build up a huge amount of miles but what mileage I have (about 20K miles) indicates that the oil works very well. In my previous car which I traded in at 20K miles, I had 18K miles on the SynLube oil. In that time, I only consumed 9.5 ounces of oil which works out to 62K miles per quart. In addition, over the course of 100K miles, I would have saved hundreds of dollars, about 24 hours of maintenance time and almost 150 quarts of waste oil.
I have no connection with the company other than that of a satisfied customer.
I will be glad to make a donation to your experiment though I have no Paypal account. I'm with NetBank. What do you suggest considering I don't want to open an account with Paypal just for this one transaction?
Response from thread
If the main reason for using PTFE is to reduce engine noise, then we'd be a lot happier if they'd just leave it out. We have no data that specifically condemns SynLube; indeed, we cannot find any data on SynLube, pro or con, anywhere at all except from SynLube themselves. At this time we consider SynLube too high a risk to test. We would sure like to see some objective data to evaluate it. If SynLube would like to publicly demonstrate the abilities of their product, they can either post bond for the cost of an engine to 200,000 miles, or they can provide us with their own test car (maybe one of those little Russian Oka cars they sell) for the duration of the test.
Please don't think that I'm resorting to "name calling" but, I cannot think of a better way to put this other than saying that I believe Irvine/Mr. Houck is a shill for Synlube.
I saw many similar posts about a year ago on the Car and Driver forums that contain many of the same "facts" pulled out of thin air as these.
The Synlube shill on the C&D forums was verbally beat to death in a thread that lasted for some 15+ pages before they finally gave up, tucked tail and ran. The Synlube shill on those forums had very few posts outside of that one thread and in any other threads the shill posted in they made sure to drop Synlubes name repeatedly.
I'm screaming b.s. on the whole idea of Synlube. If it were such a "miracle" the auto manufacturers would have already adopted something similar in the never ending quest to simplify maintenance requirements for the vehicles they sell to passify the growing portion of the public that doesn't give a **** about their cars and is only concerned with doing the minimum amount of maintenance possible to get the 50 to 100K mi they want out of the new cars they purchase.
I saw many similar posts about a year ago on the Car and Driver forums that contain many of the same "facts" pulled out of thin air as these.
The Synlube shill on the C&D forums was verbally beat to death in a thread that lasted for some 15+ pages before they finally gave up, tucked tail and ran. The Synlube shill on those forums had very few posts outside of that one thread and in any other threads the shill posted in they made sure to drop Synlubes name repeatedly.
I'm screaming b.s. on the whole idea of Synlube. If it were such a "miracle" the auto manufacturers would have already adopted something similar in the never ending quest to simplify maintenance requirements for the vehicles they sell to passify the growing portion of the public that doesn't give a **** about their cars and is only concerned with doing the minimum amount of maintenance possible to get the 50 to 100K mi they want out of the new cars they purchase.
It is VERY important to use a new crush washer with each oil change on Hondas. We had to replace the oil pan in our last Accord because the plug threads had been stripped by shops that didn't replace or use the crush washer. If you see oil leaking through the bolt, you'll know you have a problem!!!
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