Purolator Boss PBL20252 [Cut Open]

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Tony10s
Originally Posted By: Fordai
If the ADBV is up towards the engine then a cut ADBV doesn't really matter right? No oil will escape the filter UP into the engine because of gravity.


I don't know if this is true in every case. ZeeOSix has discussed this topic before and he might post a response to this before long, but I believe that the base of the filter being pointed up toward the engine doesn't necessarily mean that the oil will stay in the filter in every application. ZeeOSix can clarify this for us.


The whole discussion if an ADBV is needed or not in applications where the filter is mounted 'base up' (ie, many GM engines) has been brought up here a lot. The consensus is that even in that filter orientation an ADBV is needed.

The reason why is because any oil that resides above the level of the oil in the sump is going to try and drain down to the sump level due to gravity. Many filters mounted on the bottom of the engine with base up (like GMs) still have the filter above the sump oil level. If the oil pump gears are not 100% sealed, then oil above the sump level will eventually try to drain down to the sump level if there is nothing like an ADBV from stopping it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: WellOiled
When the filter and galleries are kept full of oil, then startup lubrication is maintained and thus wear is minimized during this period.

If you notice startup rattle, then a leaky ADBV may be the cause. If you don't notice startup rattle, then your application might not need an ADBV.


I just want to point out something, and that is not every engine will exhibit rattles or other start-up noises from a 'dry start'. All the vehicles I've ever owned never made any noises after doing and oil change and installing dry oil filter - even if I let the oil drain all night with the filter removed. That scenario pretty much would simulate a total drain down of the engine's oiling system. So on the vehicles I've owned, the ADBV could be leaking like a sieve and I'd never know it. Only way I could tell is by the oil pressure warning light taking longer to go out, or the cold oil level magically increased some.

So if your engine does rattle, etc after an oil change then it would most likely be sensitive to a leaky ADBV.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Another question in my mind.. now I'm not saying this was the case here... could this happen from filter being screwed on too tight?? I have done a magnificent job if doing this myself a time it two. Now it is highly unlikely that this has anything to do with it but I am just wondering.


I see no way that the tightness of the filter would have any bearing on the ADBV getting cut.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
I had a little time this morning so I tried to take a few closeups of the baseplate ...

Obviously those sharp ridges around each hole are what's cutting into the ADBV. Might be a good cheese cutter if you're into long round pieces of cheese.

 

[WellOiled]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
When the filter and galleries are kept full of oil, then startup lubrication is maintained and thus wear is minimized during this period.

If you notice startup rattle, then a leaky ADBV may be the cause. If you don't notice startup rattle, then your application might not need an ADBV.


I just want to point out something, and that is not every engine will exhibit rattles or other start-up noises from a 'dry start'. All the vehicles I've ever owned never made any noises after doing and oil change and installing dry oil filter - even if I let the oil drain all night with the filter removed. That scenario pretty much would simulate a total drain down of the engine's oiling system. So on the vehicles I've owned, the ADBV could be leaking like a sieve and I'd never know it. Only way I could tell is by the oil pressure warning light taking longer to go out, or the cold oil level magically increased some.

So if your engine does rattle, etc after an oil change then it would most likely be sensitive to a leaky ADBV.

ZeeOSix - On my last oil change, I did not fill the new filter with oil, the '04 Ranger 4.0L V6 rattled badly for about 3 seconds before the oil pump filled the new filter and the galleries. So, I am certain I can say whether the filter leaked down over night as "evidenced by the presence/absence of startup rattle". That would be on this engine.

However, to satisfy my curiosity, I plan to measure the amount of oil drain back over night.

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ Agreed ... your engine is obviously sensitive to system drain back.

None of mine every were. I often did an oil change by draining it hot at night and letting it drain all night with the filter removed, then installed the new filter and oil the next morning. My engines never made one different sound upon a cold dry start-up.

 

[KCJeep]

My Jeep is very cranky about it. But all our other vehicles are not, much more typical.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
You know who really thinks this thread is hilarious? Real engineers from Purolator who get to snicker at all the speculation and 'knowledge' being thrown around in here.

Perhaps, but these engineers could be laughing themselves out of market share.

 

[Fordai]

So the moral of this story is, BUY FRAM products from now on. I can't even trust Motorcraft since they are made by Purolator.

 

[WellOiled]

^^^ KCJeep - Then we should avoid this filter like the plague. Or anyone whose engine is sensitive to oil drain back.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Fordai
So the moral of this story is, BUY FRAM products from now on.

I think the moral of the story is to be vigilant, or at least be glad that we have a handful of devoted filter cutters here keeping an eye on things. You think every company would have learned a few lessons over the last number of years. In the years past, Fram got a lot of bad press, some well deserved, some not. Much of that was word of mouth stuff long before the internet became what it is today.

As the internet became more widespread, we get a bunch of cut and posts on Frams. Some look pretty ugly, some look not half bad, plus there are more upmarket versions. The public early on cries about "cardboard end caps." I admit I still don't like them, but the internet also allowed Fram to show both by PR and by example that it's not really an issue and it's not cardboard. We don't see a lot of issues of torn end caps. So, while I don't like "cardboard end caps," I really can't say much more than I don't like them. Then, Fram's upmarket models get some good cut and posts. In all, it's worked out pretty well for Fram.

Other companies would be well advised to learn from this, and in all honesty, should have figured this out a few years ago. Every kind of filter out there, including obscure brands, is going to be opened up, photographed, and placed on the net. Big names like Fram and Purolator and Wix are going to be posted more than the others. So, it would serve them well to keep construction quality consistent.

If they don't want to, don't care, or don't think it's worth it, that's absolutely fine, but it's a great way to get hammered on the net. This isn't even a topic like Ford versus Chevy versus Chrysler, where we have companies making everything from econoboxes to sports cars to luxury vehicles, and everything in between, and constant new models and innovations, so we can expect wide variations in quality, fit and finish, features, and price. These are oil filters, though. Keeping everyone happy doesn't involve much more than keeping the media in one piece, keeping it somewhat straight, making sure it's evenly spaced and not skimpy, keeping the ADBV a closed surface, and ensuring the holes and/or louvers aren't as tiny as pinholes on one extreme or letting media blow out on the other extreme.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
You know who really thinks this thread is hilarious? Real engineers from Purolator who get to snicker at all the speculation and 'knowledge' being thrown around in here.


Obvious sub part 3rd world manufacturing is not speculation and 'knowledge.' You see it. We all see it.

If I was an engineer for Purolator, I would be ashamed. My baby is being assembled, sold and used, but falls apart during normal use..

American manufacturing is my bread and butter and this whole thing is sickening. I'd like to think it is theirs too (Purolator engineers, plant employees, QC techs, CEO's/ higher ups etc.), but with the way their quality is going downhill, why would anyone want that and continue to buy American made?

Either folks are:
A.) uninformed
B.) brand biased
C.) both

 

[goodtimes]

It seems the cuts would hold the oil back fine as they are not open, just cut and still pressing together. No more leakage than at the lip of the adbv pressing on the metal base. Don't see how the little burs caused the cuts.

 

[bullwinkle]

Those baseplate holes seriously MISSED any deburring process-the ADBV is constantly moving in from the oil pressure, & the jagged edges, even if they didn't cut into the ADBV, would definitely NOT SEAL against the ADBV when the engine was shut off, allowing the oil to back up from the galleries & filter back into the sump. How many ways can Mann/Puro screw up a filter?

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
It seems the cuts would hold the oil back fine as they are not open, just cut and still pressing together. No more leakage than at the lip of the adbv pressing on the metal base.

Exactly.

Sloppy manufacturing? Yes. Still functional? Yes.

 

[WellOiled]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
It seems the cuts would hold the oil back fine as they are not open, just cut and still pressing together. No more leakage than at the lip of the adbv pressing on the metal base. Don't see how the little burs caused the cuts.

goodtimes - cut one open, run your finger over those holes and report back.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
When the filter and galleries are kept full of oil, then startup lubrication is maintained and thus wear is minimized during this period.

If you notice startup rattle, then a leaky ADBV may be the cause. If you don't notice startup rattle, then your application might not need an ADBV.


I just want to point out something, and that is not every engine will exhibit rattles or other start-up noises from a 'dry start'. All the vehicles I've ever owned never made any noises after doing and oil change and installing dry oil filter - even if I let the oil drain all night with the filter removed. That scenario pretty much would simulate a total drain down of the engine's oiling system. So on the vehicles I've owned, the ADBV could be leaking like a sieve and I'd never know it. Only way I could tell is by the oil pressure warning light taking longer to go out, or the cold oil level magically increased some.

So if your engine does rattle, etc after an oil change then it would most likely be sensitive to a leaky ADBV.
If you had a filter hanging straight down (like an old SB Chevy or similar), the ADBV isn't important. But if you have a modern engine, with a sideways mount, or timing chain tensioners, the ADBV becomes MUCH more important to prevent start up rattles.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
It seems the cuts would hold the oil back fine as they are not open, just cut and still pressing together. No more leakage than at the lip of the adbv pressing on the metal base.

Exactly.

Sloppy manufacturing? Yes. Still functional? Yes.
Those jagged baseplate holes aren't going to seal, there's going to be passages for hot oil to drain back through.

 

[funflyer]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
You know who really thinks this thread is hilarious? Real engineers from Purolator who get to snicker at all the speculation and 'knowledge' being thrown around in here.


Obvious sub part 3rd world manufacturing is not speculation and 'knowledge.' You see it. We all see it.

If I was an engineer for Purolator, I would be ashamed. My baby is being assembled, sold and used, but falls apart during normal use..

American manufacturing is my bread and butter and this whole thing is sickening. I'd like to think it is theirs too (Purolator engineers, plant employees, QC techs, CEO's/ higher ups etc.), but with the way their quality is going downhill, why would anyone want that and continue to buy American made?

Either folks are:
A.) uninformed
B.) brand biased
C.) both


When I was an QA rep (aerospace) I dealt mostly with the manufacturer's QC sections. Some companies took quality very serious and it showed. I learned a lot from these companies. Others made my job very tough and made me wonder why they ever went into business. If I inspected even one part that had machining burrs like these base plates do I rejected the whole lot regardless of whether the part was critical or not. It's poor workmanship plain and simple.



Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
It seems the cuts would hold the oil back fine as they are not open, just cut and still pressing together. No more leakage than at the lip of the adbv pressing on the metal base.

Exactly.

Sloppy manufacturing? Yes. Still functional? Yes.


I agree that the ADBV will do it's job just fine until the perforations become tears, or worse, missing pieces. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when the tooling gets a few miles on it. Burrs will no doubt become larger and we might start to see perfect little holes punched through the valves.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
It seems the cuts would hold the oil back fine as they are not open, just cut and still pressing together. No more leakage than at the lip of the adbv pressing on the metal base. Don't see how the little burs caused the cuts.

goodtimes - cut one open, run your finger over those holes and report back.

Don't need to, already done that many times. I have seen as bad burs on other brands. My point is how high are the burs, .010"-.020" at most? How does .020" cut through .125" or whatever, of rubber, clean as a knife? Maybe an explanation of how that works will support the claim. The other part is the cuts are closed, they aren't leaking oil if they are closed, any more than the lip. The ADBV doesn't seal on the holes, it seals on its edge, the lip.