Pump vs auto loading Shotgun

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Do you think before posting?

You said LEO's were offloading pumps.. I posted a think showing just the opposite.

The 870 is a pump in case you're confused. The 1187 is it's semi auto brother.


Cops are definitely offloading pump shotguns. They are not replacing them with semi-auto shotguns. They are replacing them with AR-15 rifles. Why? Because the AR-15 is more accurate. And the AR-15 has more rounds. And the AR-15 can be used at 300 yards, while the shotgun cannot be used over 45 yards with buckshot and about 125 yards with slugs. We live in a litigious society, and every round down range has a price tag. The AR-15 is such an accurate platform, it is the ideal long gun for law enforcement. And for home defense, but that's another idea for another post.



Not to mention the 223/5.56mmm round can actually penetrate fewer walls with the right type of ammo than 00 or 000 buck shot given the nature of the round at short ranges.

Yep. Shotguns are pretty much obsolete(that doesn't mean they are no longer effective) outside of specialty applications for police and military. Just no reason to have a long gun with limited range, limited precision, limited ammo capacity, much harder reloads, inability to penetrate armor, etc. Sure short range shotguns wounds look spectacular but people aren't shaking off good hits from .223 Gold Dots/etc. I would feel pretty well protected with my Marlin .357. But for home defense, it's just as obsolete when sitting next to my AR with a 40 round Pmag full of hurt sticking out the bottom.

 

[billt460]

Shotguns have been, are now, and will continue to be used by law enforcement for crowd and riot control for a long time to come. They are anything but "obsolete". An AR-15 / M-16 is completely useless for that purpose. Also, less than lethal rounds are constantly being developed for shotgun, law enforcement applications. With civil unrest constantly climbing in our country, as the racial divide grows most every passing day, these rounds are going to be of greater use than ever before. A shotgun, (preferably a pump), is the only weapon that can be used to apply them.

There is nothing less than lethal that can be sent down the barrel of a AR-15 / M-16. And cops are not going to be raking crowds with full auto M-16 fire anytime soon. They've got enough trouble not getting sued when they perform their duties as it is. Carbines have their place in law enforcement, just like shotguns do. One is not going to "replace" the other..... Or become "obsolete".

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
Place a 12oz beverage can out 50yds. See how many shots it takes you to hit it with your pocket 9mm, 380, or whatever you carry.

Chances are, an average to even poor shooter will put holes in the can with their first shot from a shotgun.

Of course 50yards isn't HD distance, just a relative shot placement contest. Congrats to those that lay the can down and hit the small end

In many states if you are shooting at someone (who is not shooting at you) at 50 yards, you are going to have a darn hard time proving self defense as you had plenty of space and time to avoid an altercation. I cannot think of any instance of home defense where you are going to be shooting at more than 25 feet unless you live in something like Wayne Manor.

 

[totegoat]

Like I said, not many pistoleros can hit the small end of a can 50yds. But many untrained shot-gunners can. You be the judge.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
Like I said, not many pistoleros can hit the small end of a can 50yds. But many untrained shot-gunners can. You be the judge.


Well in your example, I would almost guarantee that a self defense shotgun, loaded with buckshot, would miss a coke can at 50 yards 5 out of 5 shots. Buckshot goes WILD after 45 yards.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Shotguns have been, are now, and will continue to be used by law enforcement for crowd and riot control for a long time to come. They are anything but "obsolete". An AR-15 / M-16 is completely useless for that purpose.



Although they are called "riot" guns, you wont find them being used for that purpose today. Law Enforcement is not going to blast lethal ammo into a crowd. They are also getting away from the rubber buckshot as it is not that accurate and can indiscriminately hit innocent bystanders, as has happened in the past 10 or so years with a bystander losing an eye and possible being killed (going off memory). One could actually argue that the AR-15 is a better weapon for "riot control" than a shotgun that they cant/wont use as the carbine would allow police to pinpoint a person with lethal accuracy that is delivering lethal shots or Molotov cocktails towards the police.

The police weapon of choice for riots is 37MM/40MM launchers that shoot rubber/wood impact batons and OC/CS gas.

Rubber batons in widespread use now

37MM launcher

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: billt460
These are all foolish examples and comparisons. If you are using a 12 ga. shotgun for home defense, chances are if you shoot at an intruder it will be from a very short distance. Most likely less than 15 feet away. Unless you live in a very large, open home. At that distance, even from a cylinder bore, shot will not spread much, if at all. Hitting anyone in a vital area with a shotgun blast from that short of a distance is going to incapacitate them regardless of what size shot it is.


There are three ways to incapacitate a person.
1) via blood loss (they pass out)
2) central nervous system damage (brain, neck, spine hit, person falls over incapacitated immediately)
3) Pain/psychological (they realize they have been injured, they give up, sit down, and wait for an ambulance or run away)

Bird shot CANNOT reliably incapacitate via 1 and 2 above. A drugged up psychopath doesn't feel pain, doesn't care if they have been shot. They are extremely dangerous. They have super human strength. They dont care if they are bleeding heavily. They dont care that they are fully nude (they take off their clothes as their body overheats and their brain melts down). They dont care if their bones are snapped/broken as the cops try to subdue them. They should not be taken lightly. Yeah its true, birdshot will work for the majority of encounters, and for the majority of people shot with it. But with as many people as I have seen freak out on bath salts, why risk your life with birdshot? It makes no sense. Buckshot WILL reach vitals and offer the chance of a blood loss or nervous system stop. If you are worried about over penetration, than #4 buckshot offers a nice compromise.

 

[4WD]

Aside from hunting shotguns - I have a 12 ga riot gun - pretty wild pattern from that short barrel ugly stick ...
You'd do way more with my old Marlin Goose Gun - 3-1/2" mag in BB ...
(Neither above are good for 150# shooters)

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
Like I said, not many pistoleros can hit the small end of a can 50yds. But many untrained shot-gunners can. You be the judge.


And as I said....it is an example not germane to this discussion at all due to the distance. Doubling down on a bad point is not going to make it better.

You shoot someone at 50 yards and claim self defense, you are going to end up in prision unless that person was trying to shoot you at 50 yards also.

Not to mention at 50 yards, you better be using 00 or 000 buckshot because anyone that has hunted upland game knows that birdshot at that distance has scrubbed off a lot of its kinetic energy.

 

[hatt]

Here's something for you pump fans. Up you capacity a bit. After proving they cycle 100% in your gun of course.

http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2015/12/02/aguila-minishell-little-shotshell/

 

[Robenstein]

The problem is that with most pumps, they won't reliably load. I know Mossbergs and Remingtons do not load them reliably. If I recall the old Winchester 1200 and 1300 guns work with them okay.

If you have a standard capacity shotty, better to just toss on an extension tube than deal with these things. If I recall there was one gun designed with them in mind, the South African Mag 7, which is a very Uzi inspired looking shotgun that uses a detachable mag in the grip.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Here's something for you pump fans. Up you capacity a bit. After proving they cycle 100% in your gun of course.

http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2015/12/02/aguila-minishell-little-shotshell/


Those things are silly gimmick rounds that will only feed reliably in a break action shotgun. And you would have to be brain dead to use them in one. The one thing they do offer better than anything currently on the market are problems.

 

[totegoat]

"WINCHESTER® Slide-Action Shotgun Models 1200, 1300, 120, and 2200; SEARS® Slide-Action Shotgun Models 200 and Ted Williams® 200; WINCHESTER Semi-Automatic Shotgun Models 1400, 1500, 140, and 2400; SEARS Semi-Automatic Shotgun Models 300 and Ted Williams 300

Olin Corporation, through its Winchester Division, is warning users of the above shotguns to follow owner’s manual instructions to fully open the action before moving the safety to the “ON” position and to only use shotgun shells of 2-3/4 inch or 3 inch length.

Under certain conditions it may be possible to move the safety to the “ON” position while the shotgun’s action is partially open, placing the hammer under control of the safety and not the trigger. Operating the safety in this manner is improper and contrary to the instruction manual. It has come to our attention that short length shotgun shells, including those known as “minishells”, can be manually placed in the firearm’s chamber while the action is partially open. With the hammer controlled by the safety and with a shotgun shell in the chamber, closing the action and moving the safety to the “OFF” position may accidentally fire the shotgun without a trigger pull. Accidental firing may result in property damage, serious personal injury or death."

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
Here's something for you pump fans. Up you capacity a bit. After proving they cycle 100% in your gun of course.

http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2015/12/02/aguila-minishell-little-shotshell/


Those things are silly gimmick rounds that will only feed reliably in a break action shotgun. And you would have to be brain dead to use them in one. The one thing they do offer better than anything currently on the market are problems.



Or one of these

 

[hatt]

Neat. Never seen one of those.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Neat. Never seen one of those.


They weren't imported for very long to the USA, like most South African guns.

 

[totegoat]

I've seen uglier firearms, but that pos is right up there. What a hunk of [censored].

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
Under certain conditions it may be possible to move the safety to the “ON” position while the shotgun’s action is partially open, placing the hammer under control of the safety and not the trigger. Operating the safety in this manner is improper and contrary to the instruction manual. It has come to our attention that short length shotgun shells, including those known as “minishells”, can be manually placed in the firearm’s chamber while the action is partially open. With the hammer controlled by the safety and with a shotgun shell in the chamber, closing the action and moving the safety to the “OFF” position may accidentally fire the shotgun without a trigger pull. Accidental firing may result in property damage, serious personal injury or death."


My safety is on my right hand located between my thumb and "finger" finger.

Plus why shoot those little shells? I have 2.75 ot 3.0 magnums only. More pellets per shot is always better IMO since that is the whole concept behind using a shotgun.

 

[ammolab]

Pump or Auto was a tough choice for me until the Wife bought a Benelli M 3 shotgun.

It is a Pump AND a Semi Auto.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: ammolab
Pump or Auto was a tough choice for me until the Wife bought a Benelli M 3 shotgun.

It is a Pump AND a Semi Auto.


Kind of like the iconic Franchi Spas 12