Pump vs auto loading Shotgun

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Here's a link for you:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=ch...rcement+shotgun

Also, I am not sure how you're getting "20-30 year old" info.





I didn't think you'd be able to post firearms experts saying pump shotguns were superior to semis. And you didn't disappoint.


Do you think before posting?

You said LEO's were offloading pumps.. I posted a think showing just the opposite.

The 870 is a pump in case you're confused. The 1187 is it's semi auto brother.

 

[4WD]

Yes, I own both Remington models - this is statement of fact.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
You said LEO's were offloading pumps.


There will always be more pumps in LEO and military arsenals than semi auto shotguns because of cost. Police departments are on limited budgets. As is the military. It's why they have far more Mossberg 590's than M-4's. They can buy them on a 3 to 1 margin. Also, pumps will cycle with lower powered loads, and less than lethal rounds that are becoming more popular with law enforcement, (rubber balls and beanbags). Semi's will not. Even the Benelli M-4 is finicky with lower powered rounds. Many won't cycle them reliably.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Here's a link for you:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=ch...rcement+shotgun

Also, I am not sure how you're getting "20-30 year old" info.





I didn't think you'd be able to post firearms experts saying pump shotguns were superior to semis. And you didn't disappoint.


Do you think before posting?

You said LEO's were offloading pumps.. I posted a think showing just the opposite.

The 870 is a pump in case you're confused. The 1187 is it's semi auto brother.
You posted a google search, not a link. 11-87 is an antique. Its not in the discussion of current combat shotguns. LEOs are offloading shotguns in general and replacing them with carbines.

Anyway, post a link showing a modern firearms expert saying that pumps are superior defensive guns. It shouldn't be hard if things are what you say.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: CT8
Why a shot gun?
because a bullitt can pass through several walls and kill a neighbor 3 doors down


ANY bullet that is suitable for defensive use, will pass through several walls. Pistol, shotgun, rifle, they all will. There is no getting around the physics involved, of a piece of lead flying 1000 to 3200 feet per second. If it will penetrate 14 inches of human flesh to reach vitals, it will definitely penetrate 1/2 inch interior walls.

And no, birdshot is not a suitable defensive load. Only a FOOL would load such a round for defensive use.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: 2cool
A pistol caliber carbine is a great idea for a HD weapon; specifically a .357 magnum. Very low recoil with the most powerful ammo, relatively cheap to feed for practice, easy to clean, and very handy even in a house. I can tell you with absolute certainty that a hollow-point 357 out of a pistol will go through two interior walls and stop. Out of a rifle, maybe a third.


A .357 Magnum will easily pass through two interior walls. More like 8 or 9 sheetrock boards, which would be at least 4 walls.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Get a pump.

The sound a pumping action itself is enough to scare a home invader.
No, it's not. And if it is. Charging a semi will sound similar. Then after it's charged it's easier to shoot and no worries about short stroking. The only benefit a pump has for most people is much lower cost of entry for similar quality.


Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: dlundblad


The sound a pumping action itself is enough to scare a home invader.

or let them know where you are at.

Exactly. The moment an intruder inside your house figures out you know he is there is when the bullets/buckshot/slugs hit him.


Have you ever taken any firearm/ hunting safety courses? I have been to a few lead by LEO's and regarding shotguns, they have preached the pump over semi auto debate most of the time.

If the OP is asking this sort of question, he is a newb. (No offense to the OP.. we all have to start somewhere.) I do NOT recommend a semi auto shotgun to a newby gun owner and once again, this is also preached in gun/ hunting safety courses by LEO's.

As far as the noise, you contradicted yourself a few posts down. "A pump will sound similar to a semi auto." then you agree to the statement "A pump will give away your position." What?

If the OP gets a gun fitting to his frame, proper firearm training and practice will eliminate your short stroking worry too.


I'll definitely side with hatt on this one. A good semi auto would be superior for MOST folks. They are just more reliable in MOST folks hands. And by most folks, that means people that go to the range once or twice a year or less, which is the vast majority of folks. Most people just prop a 12 gauage up in the corner and call it good. They will be much better with a semi auto.

As to LEO preaching pump over semi auto, there are 900,000 LEO's in the country. I was one of them. Some know their stuff, the vast majority dont. A Benelli M2 Tactical is SUPERIOR to any pump gun on the market in a trained persons hands. PERIOD. End of discussion. PERIOD. The Benelli M2 is just a beast of a shotgun. 100% reliable, it just works, fast follow up shots, and did I say it just works? So dont be so quick to pounce on hatt for expressing his views, because a lot of what he said was 100% accurate and correct.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Do you think before posting?

You said LEO's were offloading pumps.. I posted a think showing just the opposite.

The 870 is a pump in case you're confused. The 1187 is it's semi auto brother.


Cops are definitely offloading pump shotguns. They are not replacing them with semi-auto shotguns. They are replacing them with AR-15 rifles. Why? Because the AR-15 is more accurate. And the AR-15 has more rounds. And the AR-15 can be used at 300 yards, while the shotgun cannot be used over 45 yards with buckshot and about 125 yards with slugs. We live in a litigious society, and every round down range has a price tag. The AR-15 is such an accurate platform, it is the ideal long gun for law enforcement. And for home defense, but that's another idea for another post.

 

[bubbatime]

OP, I was trained and am an armor on the 870 platform. That is my pump shotgun of choice, because I was highly trained on the platform and know it like the back of my hand.

Do you have any prior training on any platform? If you dont, and you want a pump, I would HIGHLY advise you to look at the Benelli Nova and Super Nova pumps. They are the best designed, best built pump shotguns on the market. I love my 870 police model, but the Benelli guns are superior.

Most folks just say "get the Remington 870" or "get the Mossberg 500/590". The reason being, these are very popular guns. Guns they are familiar with. But honestly, the Nova and Super Nova pumps are superior, if you have no previous experience with the Mossberg/Remington platforms.

If you want the BEST tactical shotgun on the market, and can afford it, I would highly advise a look at the Benelli M2 Tactical ($1200). There is a reason almost every single 3 gun shooter in the country uses this weapon. It is fast and reliable, and WELL tested in the 3 gun circuit.

But my best advice, honestly, is this. If you want a long gun for home defense, it is darn hard to bypass the very common, readily available, and getting cheaper by the day AR-15 platform. 30 rounds, reliable, accurate, ideal. Cant beat it. $600-$800 for a decent one.

 

[4WD]

My uncle (mom's side) was killed with birdshot - he was just way closer than Cheney's buddy. Some of you might have seen a blind man do a safety presentation - lost both eyes hunting birds.. So yeah, many have lived through it - get that part - many have not.
Guess since I'm being called a fool - will summarize what I do - not what OP should do. (Prolly wants to shoot himself by now)
I load 1 or 2 #4 bird shot (based on my own testing) ahead of "Taurus" defense loads - testing shows these pistol shells achieve much better penetration from a full choke long barrel - some loads better than buckshot. A slug is equivalent to a .357 mag - but some fanatics don't consider that much of a gun, oh well. Once on private land - shotgun holds 5.

So yeah, I keep a .44 mag in my nightstand at home - But I'm not crossing two redneck counties and then a Federal Wildlife Refuge with anything I don't want taken away - they do as they please here. Again, far more likely to shoot a rattlesnake... But having used guns for decades I can clear the cheap stuff in seconds - and when I think about it - I pull them out at night for nasty shells - but not getting out of bed for that. My doors down there are 2" solid lumber with 2x4 barricades inside - heavy steel in frame - and three locks each. Windows have real shutters. Nobody will sneak in - dog sleeps light anyway. The guy next door is a PO - next county. He does not bring his issued Glock - just a cheap .32 that fits in his pocket. We don't live in Chicago ...

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Do you think before posting?

You said LEO's were offloading pumps.. I posted a think showing just the opposite.

The 870 is a pump in case you're confused. The 1187 is it's semi auto brother.


Cops are definitely offloading pump shotguns. They are not replacing them with semi-auto shotguns. They are replacing them with AR-15 rifles. Why? Because the AR-15 is more accurate. And the AR-15 has more rounds. And the AR-15 can be used at 300 yards, while the shotgun cannot be used over 45 yards with buckshot and about 125 yards with slugs. We live in a litigious society, and every round down range has a price tag. The AR-15 is such an accurate platform, it is the ideal long gun for law enforcement. And for home defense, but that's another idea for another post.



Not to mention the 223/5.56mmm round can actually penetrate fewer walls with the right type of ammo than 00 or 000 buck shot given the nature of the round at short ranges.

 

[totegoat]

You have to remember, single bullets need aim to hit their target. Shotguns are slop shooters. They hit whatever happens to be in their way.

 

[BobsArmory]

This is why I do my best to not get involved in firearm discussions on most forums. People are mentally too invested in what they own and shoot and ignore modern science to give correct advice. "Shoot bird shot at 50 yards and kill them on the spot!". " The sound of a pump shotgun racking a shell in the chamber will send the most drugged up terrorists on the run guaranteed!" And on and on goes the mindless drivel...

If you want a shotgun for defense, good for you! Pick up a few different ones and run thru the manual of arms to see what shoots best for YOU. Then buy man stopper rounds that are built for what you need to accomplish. Shoot the [censored] out of it to make sure it does what you want and have a blast while doing it.

End of discussion.

 

[BobsArmory]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
You have to remember, single bullets need aim to hit their target. Shotguns are slop shooters. They hit whatever happens to be in their way.


Bull [censored]

 

[billt460]

Shotguns have been in police cruisers for decades. And they will remain in them for decades to come.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
You have to remember, single bullets need aim to hit their target. Shotguns are slop shooters. They hit whatever happens to be in their way.


Go shoot a 12 gauge at a man-sized target at 7 yards.

Take a picture with a ruler in it for scale.

Report back on how much "slop" you've got at a typical HD engagement range.

 

[BobsArmory]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: totegoat
You have to remember, single bullets need aim to hit their target. Shotguns are slop shooters. They hit whatever happens to be in their way.


Go shoot a 12 gauge at a man-sized target at 7 yards.

Take a picture with a ruler in it for scale.

Report back on how much "slop" you've got at a typical HD engagement range.


Thank you!

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
You have to remember, single bullets need aim to hit their target. Shotguns are slop shooters. They hit whatever happens to be in their way.


I think you have a very erroneous idea of how shotguns work....like they are some blunderbus of yore...and even those were not like you describe.

 

[totegoat]

Place a 12oz beverage can out 50yds. See how many shots it takes you to hit it with your pocket 9mm, 380, or whatever you carry.

Chances are, an average to even poor shooter will put holes in the can with their first shot from a shotgun.

Of course 50yards isn't HD distance, just a relative shot placement contest. Congrats to those that lay the can down and hit the small end

 

[billt460]

These are all foolish examples and comparisons. If you are using a 12 ga. shotgun for home defense, chances are if you shoot at an intruder it will be from a very short distance. Most likely less than 15 feet away. Unless you live in a very large, open home. At that distance, even from a cylinder bore, shot will not spread much, if at all. Hitting anyone in a vital area with a shotgun blast from that short of a distance is going to incapacitate them regardless of what size shot it is. If anyone has any doubts about this, buy a box of Trap or Skeet loads and try shooting them at various targets from 8 to 15 feet away. Then come back here and tell me all about how it's going to make him aggravated and healthier. Would 00 Buck be "better"? Perhaps, but you can't kill someone "deader" than dead. The fact is shotguns at very close range are devastating. This conversation is descending into the foolishness all of these end up doing.