after reading a billion threads here on this very subject, i dumped the factory fill in my 05 Pilot at 2000 miles, filled w/ havoline 5-20, about 1/3 bottle of valvoline syn-power and used an oem Honda Filtech filter.(Not Fram!)
Pulling The Break-In oil
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I bought a 1979 Camero new with a 305 in it. I changed the oil and filter at 25 miles, 50 miles, 100 miles, 250 miles, 500 miles, and 1000 miles. After that I changed the oil every 1500 miles for the life of the car (10w30 summers and 5w30 winters). The car was run "fast" but not "hard", often cruising at 100+ MPH for 100's of miles (radar detectors and CB radio's could win the war back then). In over 100,000 miles the car never used any oil, and had full power when it was wrecked.
The problem is I have nothing to compare the performance to. What would have happened had I changed the oil every 3000 miles? Maybe 5,000 miles? Did I waste a lot of oil and filters? Did I do "best" for the engine? All I know for sure was that the engine really ran well and was very clean when they towed it away after it got rear ended.
In my current cars I run 10,000 mile OCIs with synthetic oil. And I have the same questions.
The problem is I have nothing to compare the performance to. What would have happened had I changed the oil every 3000 miles? Maybe 5,000 miles? Did I waste a lot of oil and filters? Did I do "best" for the engine? All I know for sure was that the engine really ran well and was very clean when they towed it away after it got rear ended.
In my current cars I run 10,000 mile OCIs with synthetic oil. And I have the same questions.
At work we bought an 05 Accord V6 and Nissan Quest SL (which seems to get 2-3 mpg better than the new Ody btw).
We changed to Mobil One and Mobil One or Purolator Pure One filters at 7,500.
We drive this vehicles 2-2,500 per month and will have an initial oil analysis done at 15,000, which will come up in August.
We changed to Mobil One and Mobil One or Purolator Pure One filters at 7,500.
We drive this vehicles 2-2,500 per month and will have an initial oil analysis done at 15,000, which will come up in August.
I have the same engine in my Ridgeline. There is no set answer to your question as everyone has a different opinion - and they all work!
From everything I have read here and at other places, the whole issue about oil, OCI and the various analysis for virgin and used oil tells me certain things. One thing it tells me is there is no universal agreement on any of these issues. Some cars run better and longer with certain oils than others. This is determined mostly by trial and error since everyone drives differently and under different conditions so the same oil in the same engine may perform differently for someone in Main than it does for someone in Florida.
This is the beauty of an OLM (which my truck and I assume your vehicle have). The OLM takes into account several factors that are important to oil life expectancy. Although not a true analysis of course, it is much better than simply going by time and mileage factors which are arbitrary at worst and simply habit at best. OLMs are designed by fairly smart engineers specifically for the engine it monitors. Short of constantly doing UOAs, it seems to me to be the best way to determine OCI (unless you are going synthetic for long, extended drain OCIs).
Look at all the UOAs and determine from those a quality oil to use that seems to do well in your engine type (Havoline, Motorcraft, Chevron are among several). Go with the weight required for your vehicle under normal use, especially while under warranty (use a heavier weight than recommended only if you stress the vehicle such as constant, heavy towing).
In short, again, unless you do lots of UOAs, let your OLM and owner's manual guide you as to OCIs (including the factory fill). These will be at least as accurate a gauge for you as trying to sort out all the opinions giving at websites. Having said that, if 1000 mile, 3000 mile or whatever OCIs will make you sleep better at night, go for it. I do not believe changing oil sooner than suggested by the manufacturer has ever damaged an engine.
From everything I have read here and at other places, the whole issue about oil, OCI and the various analysis for virgin and used oil tells me certain things. One thing it tells me is there is no universal agreement on any of these issues. Some cars run better and longer with certain oils than others. This is determined mostly by trial and error since everyone drives differently and under different conditions so the same oil in the same engine may perform differently for someone in Main than it does for someone in Florida.
This is the beauty of an OLM (which my truck and I assume your vehicle have). The OLM takes into account several factors that are important to oil life expectancy. Although not a true analysis of course, it is much better than simply going by time and mileage factors which are arbitrary at worst and simply habit at best. OLMs are designed by fairly smart engineers specifically for the engine it monitors. Short of constantly doing UOAs, it seems to me to be the best way to determine OCI (unless you are going synthetic for long, extended drain OCIs).
Look at all the UOAs and determine from those a quality oil to use that seems to do well in your engine type (Havoline, Motorcraft, Chevron are among several). Go with the weight required for your vehicle under normal use, especially while under warranty (use a heavier weight than recommended only if you stress the vehicle such as constant, heavy towing).
In short, again, unless you do lots of UOAs, let your OLM and owner's manual guide you as to OCIs (including the factory fill). These will be at least as accurate a gauge for you as trying to sort out all the opinions giving at websites. Having said that, if 1000 mile, 3000 mile or whatever OCIs will make you sleep better at night, go for it. I do not believe changing oil sooner than suggested by the manufacturer has ever damaged an engine.
Take a chill pill and leave everything as is till at least 3750 miles. No greater sacrifice to the gods of Honda can a BITOGer make.
BTW, no transmission "patch", rather a major redesign. So far no problems at the Ody forum. How about a 3.5 qt drain and fill on it when you do the oil?
BTW, no transmission "patch", rather a major redesign. So far no problems at the Ody forum. How about a 3.5 qt drain and fill on it when you do the oil?
How often do you get the VTEC to switch to the high performance lobes of the cams? Maybe Honda stresses keeping the original doped factory oil (or whatever you want to call it) for a certain length of time to insure the rarely/less used high performance lobes of the cams get a chance to break in without scuffing?
I dont think thats an issue with any OHC enigine. Cams dont wear because the use of the roller rockers. Very little oil is need in this area because it runs like a ball bearing.
New to this forum but I have done a lot of reading on it up to now and just had to add a reply to this post.
I have also done a ton of reading about this subject and in my very humble opinion only one has gotten it right so far when it comes to engine break in oil changes.
First of all in modern engines, there is usually no break in oil as such. As many know, in older technology, there was a very specific break in oil and procedure that no longer has to be followed today with the methods and tollerances that manufacture now has.
Some high performance cars come through with synthetic oil as the break in oil of choice.
If you think that this forum is picky about oil, you ain't seen nothin' until you visit a motorcycle forum. Those boys would make this one seem mild in comparison.
One thing I found and throughly believe in is short periods between oil changes in the first 1000 miles to get any junk like shavings, dirt, rag leftovers, or anything that may have gotten in during assembly line happenings -- out.
I got a new Tacoma truck a week or two ago and I dumped the oil at 150 miles and thought that was way to long to go. It happened that it was the only time I could do it though.
I will dump again at 4-500 miles and at 1000 before I start my regular oil changes every 3-4000 miles.
Here is the way I think it should be done to achieve perfect results.
I have also done a ton of reading about this subject and in my very humble opinion only one has gotten it right so far when it comes to engine break in oil changes.
First of all in modern engines, there is usually no break in oil as such. As many know, in older technology, there was a very specific break in oil and procedure that no longer has to be followed today with the methods and tollerances that manufacture now has.
Some high performance cars come through with synthetic oil as the break in oil of choice.
If you think that this forum is picky about oil, you ain't seen nothin' until you visit a motorcycle forum. Those boys would make this one seem mild in comparison.
One thing I found and throughly believe in is short periods between oil changes in the first 1000 miles to get any junk like shavings, dirt, rag leftovers, or anything that may have gotten in during assembly line happenings -- out.
I got a new Tacoma truck a week or two ago and I dumped the oil at 150 miles and thought that was way to long to go. It happened that it was the only time I could do it though.
I will dump again at 4-500 miles and at 1000 before I start my regular oil changes every 3-4000 miles.
Here is the way I think it should be done to achieve perfect results.
And if you really want to have fun Maybe yes maybe no
Truck&Cycle, first of all:
On the subject at hand, we've discussed this topic at least a hundred times here. And anyone one who has hung around here for a while has read the MotoTune break-in article because it's usually mentioned just as often.
As far as Honda's recommendation for the first OCI, you'll find it in the service manual, the owner's manual, a TSB, and they tell every salesman, service manager to make sure new owners are made aware of it. Somehow I just can't accept that Honda goes through such lengths if it wasn't beneficial in some way or at least prevents a problem under certain conditions such as the lightening of the customer's wallet by overzealous dealers who might try to convince new owners into to paying for 5 OCIs in the first 1K miles.
On the subject at hand, we've discussed this topic at least a hundred times here. And anyone one who has hung around here for a while has read the MotoTune break-in article because it's usually mentioned just as often.
As far as Honda's recommendation for the first OCI, you'll find it in the service manual, the owner's manual, a TSB, and they tell every salesman, service manager to make sure new owners are made aware of it. Somehow I just can't accept that Honda goes through such lengths if it wasn't beneficial in some way or at least prevents a problem under certain conditions such as the lightening of the customer's wallet by overzealous dealers who might try to convince new owners into to paying for 5 OCIs in the first 1K miles.
Not necessarily, some OHC designs have the cams directly acting on inverted bucket lifters. In Honda's case look at the differences between the F23A1, F23A4 and the F23A5 4 cylinders. Honda moved from a roller cam follower to a non-roller cam follower. The engines look identical, and you wouldn't have a clue until you pulled the valve covers and had a look.
Thanks for the welcome and I guess I should have figured that Moto-Man would not get get by on this forum without careful scrutiny.
There is a war going on between manufactures and the one for the most part who disturbes the customers the least wins in their eyes.
A compromise between frequent maintenance procedures and extended maintenance is in the works.
99.9% of the people don't have a clue and also dont't keep their vehicles long enough to matter so the manufactures can get away with streching their intervals a bit to make it look like their product is that much more superior to the competition by playing the compromise game between the best way to go and good enough to get away with. If my dealer tried to get me to do a series of oil changes before the recomended interval that the maker wants to streach to, I wouldn't feel to good about that if I was one of the 99.9%ers so I can see why the manufactures servive bulletin the dealers not to do that.
Picture a bunch of suits sitting around at a 3 martini lunch bragging about their rides. One says, "I don't have to service my new magnifi-mobile for 5000 miles and the other says, "my dealer wants me in for 100, 500, and 1000 mile oil changes in my new super-cooper". What would the other boys think? The manufactures most likely at the hands of marketing are doing what they have to do to stay in the game. It is a sliding scale keep up thing.
I will not buy into it. To take a feshly machined item as complex as a modern day engine and let the first transfusion go 5000 miles is a poor process.
Too many engines with too many miles have passed through me to accept that.
The oil in my truck was starting to show signs of changing color pretty good after 50 miles. I have 400 miles on it now and the oil that I put in is still clean as can be.
How can it hurt to do a short oil change on a new engine. On motorcycles, such as my Honda, they recommend a 600 mile first service which includes an oil change. They know that most riders are in the know and it is the proper thing to do. Bike engines operate just like a car except that the transmission gears are lubricated with the same oil that the rest of the engine is and the shear factor is much higher. The oil change intervals after that go, on some bikes, to 6-and 7000 miles too. What it boils down to is cheap insurance to put in new fluid soon afer a new engine has be run for a while. We don't know what that new mill went through on the assembly line. You could have half of the doughnut from a shortened coffee brake floating around in there. That is one of the main reasons why it is good to make an early change. Get the junk or potential junk out. Don't rely on an oil filter to do all the work on the first go around.
There is a war going on between manufactures and the one for the most part who disturbes the customers the least wins in their eyes.
A compromise between frequent maintenance procedures and extended maintenance is in the works.
99.9% of the people don't have a clue and also dont't keep their vehicles long enough to matter so the manufactures can get away with streching their intervals a bit to make it look like their product is that much more superior to the competition by playing the compromise game between the best way to go and good enough to get away with. If my dealer tried to get me to do a series of oil changes before the recomended interval that the maker wants to streach to, I wouldn't feel to good about that if I was one of the 99.9%ers so I can see why the manufactures servive bulletin the dealers not to do that.
Picture a bunch of suits sitting around at a 3 martini lunch bragging about their rides. One says, "I don't have to service my new magnifi-mobile for 5000 miles and the other says, "my dealer wants me in for 100, 500, and 1000 mile oil changes in my new super-cooper". What would the other boys think? The manufactures most likely at the hands of marketing are doing what they have to do to stay in the game. It is a sliding scale keep up thing.
I will not buy into it. To take a feshly machined item as complex as a modern day engine and let the first transfusion go 5000 miles is a poor process.
Too many engines with too many miles have passed through me to accept that.
The oil in my truck was starting to show signs of changing color pretty good after 50 miles. I have 400 miles on it now and the oil that I put in is still clean as can be.
How can it hurt to do a short oil change on a new engine. On motorcycles, such as my Honda, they recommend a 600 mile first service which includes an oil change. They know that most riders are in the know and it is the proper thing to do. Bike engines operate just like a car except that the transmission gears are lubricated with the same oil that the rest of the engine is and the shear factor is much higher. The oil change intervals after that go, on some bikes, to 6-and 7000 miles too. What it boils down to is cheap insurance to put in new fluid soon afer a new engine has be run for a while. We don't know what that new mill went through on the assembly line. You could have half of the doughnut from a shortened coffee brake floating around in there. That is one of the main reasons why it is good to make an early change. Get the junk or potential junk out. Don't rely on an oil filter to do all the work on the first go around.
The only thing in common between a 2005 Honda V-6 and a 1979 Camaro engine is that they use spark plugs, oil and gas. My bet is that you could eat off the epoxy coated floor of the Honda engine special air filtrated assembly shop.
The VQ in my '97 Maxima was 70% assembled by robots in a brand new plant.
Leave that Honda break-in oil in.
The VQ in my '97 Maxima was 70% assembled by robots in a brand new plant.
Leave that Honda break-in oil in.
If there were any metal shavings suspended in the oil they would have to go through the oil pump to get to the filter.
Do short OCI's for 15,000 miles.
Do short OCI's for 15,000 miles.
You can write volumes on how you "believe" Honda determined these recommendations, but you have ZERO evidence to back it up. Most of the "old-pros" here at BITOG look past personal self-serving logic used by people wanting to support their side of the debate and demand something a little more substantial than a lot of hand waving.
One theory I've not seen about Honda's oil change recommendations-
The long initial oil change interval is to break in the CUSTOMER! All the little niggling things about a new car, initial squeeks etc may actually go away in the customer's mind after a little use!
So the owner stays away from the dealer for quite awhile and therefore does not pester them with small warranty claims! Warranty costs go down and the profit goes up.
No engineering input there, simply bean-counters making the rules.
The long initial oil change interval is to break in the CUSTOMER! All the little niggling things about a new car, initial squeeks etc may actually go away in the customer's mind after a little use!
So the owner stays away from the dealer for quite awhile and therefore does not pester them with small warranty claims! Warranty costs go down and the profit goes up.
No engineering input there, simply bean-counters making the rules.
My father just bought an Equinox as well. Nice car, not something I can see myself buying at this point, but pretty decent. Anyway, although changing the oil fairly early might not be a bad idea, don't switch to synthetic early on. My dad's friend is a top mechanic at the dealer, and he asked him about the "break-in" period. Apparentely, if you switch to synthetic too early with the 3.4, there's a good chance you'll find yourself leaking oil.
You didn't do that, of course, I was just using it as an example. Change it with dino at 1k? Not necessary, but sure, why not. Change to synthetic? Might want to hold off, depending on the motor. My 3800 was practically born and raised on M1.
For $10 + tax, which gets me a Pure-1 oil filter and 5 quarts of Exxon oil, I believe fresh oil & Filter is better then break in oil with 1,000-1,500 miles on it with all shavings. If I'm going to spend $25k+ on a new vehicle then it won't break me to spend $10 on fresh oil/filter.
Yep. Cut open your new Honda oil filter and show us all the shavings.quote:
Originally posted by Ugly3:
Why aren't the "shavings" in the oil filter?
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