Public school zero tolerance policies are ASININE
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I asked a friend of mine, who is a pharmacist--and has a teenager in high school, what she thought of this whole thing. I think her thoughts are pretty relevant since she has a good perspective from both the kid-angle and the drug-angle.
First thing she mentioned: "you have no idea what it's like with kids these days and medications. Tons of kids are on prescription meds, and all schools have rigid policies as a result. You can't give someone an aspirin. That's the reality today, and there's no way that kid didn't know the school policy. No effin' way" Those were her exact (well, almost!) words. So Drew's argument falls even more flat to me.
Secondly, she mentioned the same thing that I mentioned earlier in this post: "inhalers kill more people than they save, and that's just with the data the drug companies haven't surpressed". You can argue that if you want, but you're gonna have a big, uphill road to prove otherwise. She also said that yeah, the risk is "low, but real".
Lastly, I agree with the school administrator who posted on this sight. The rules exist for a reason (that reason is that a ridiculous number of parents feel that their kids need to be medicated, and there are a TON of prescription drugs flying around the school). She should be sanctioned according to the school's policy--the school did the right thing. She shouldn't be kicked out of school, given the circumstances, assuming it went down as she said it did.
First thing she mentioned: "you have no idea what it's like with kids these days and medications. Tons of kids are on prescription meds, and all schools have rigid policies as a result. You can't give someone an aspirin. That's the reality today, and there's no way that kid didn't know the school policy. No effin' way" Those were her exact (well, almost!) words. So Drew's argument falls even more flat to me.
Secondly, she mentioned the same thing that I mentioned earlier in this post: "inhalers kill more people than they save, and that's just with the data the drug companies haven't surpressed". You can argue that if you want, but you're gonna have a big, uphill road to prove otherwise. She also said that yeah, the risk is "low, but real".
Lastly, I agree with the school administrator who posted on this sight. The rules exist for a reason (that reason is that a ridiculous number of parents feel that their kids need to be medicated, and there are a TON of prescription drugs flying around the school). She should be sanctioned according to the school's policy--the school did the right thing. She shouldn't be kicked out of school, given the circumstances, assuming it went down as she said it did.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
UNBELIEVEABLE! The girl who acted fast to try and help her friend deserves some kind of commendation not to be expelled from school. All this teaches these girls( and the other students )is don't try and help anyone who needs it and don't accept any help if offered.
The lemmings cannot have any sympathetic feelings for each other, as this makes people do crazy things, like unite and stand up to the oppressing overloads. There was a thread, not too long ago, about vandalism and that no one said anything. This is the kind of behavior that the controlling elite want to see.
So forget about helping anybody, or at least have your lawyer on speed dial for quick consultation before doing anything
I was trained is CPR, but it was only valid for 2 years, for some reason. I was told that after that period I can be legally prosecuted for administering CPR even if that saved a life.
UNBELIEVEABLE! The girl who acted fast to try and help her friend deserves some kind of commendation not to be expelled from school. All this teaches these girls( and the other students )is don't try and help anyone who needs it and don't accept any help if offered.
The lemmings cannot have any sympathetic feelings for each other, as this makes people do crazy things, like unite and stand up to the oppressing overloads. There was a thread, not too long ago, about vandalism and that no one said anything. This is the kind of behavior that the controlling elite want to see.
So forget about helping anybody, or at least have your lawyer on speed dial for quick consultation before doing anything
I was trained is CPR, but it was only valid for 2 years, for some reason. I was told that after that period I can be legally prosecuted for administering CPR even if that saved a life.
Originally Posted By: Tdbo
I hope the sentence structure used in this answer is not to complex for you or Al.
As a trained Engineer it is not too complex for me to follow. Your writing was not "too complex" for me. It broke many of the rules of good writing form and style. That made it hard to read. People that write clearly try to compose shorter sentences and shorter paragraphs. I try to compose paragraphs of no more than 6 sentences or maybe 150 words. I try to keep sentences shorter than 12 words.
You had a sentence in there of 54 words and a gunning-fog index of 27.53
http://gunning-fog-index.com/fog.cgi
I was merely trying to help you. Your paragraph was just too tedious for me to want to read it. I am sure I am not alone.
I hope the sentence structure used in this answer is not to complex for you or Al.
As a trained Engineer it is not too complex for me to follow. Your writing was not "too complex" for me. It broke many of the rules of good writing form and style. That made it hard to read. People that write clearly try to compose shorter sentences and shorter paragraphs. I try to compose paragraphs of no more than 6 sentences or maybe 150 words. I try to keep sentences shorter than 12 words.
You had a sentence in there of 54 words and a gunning-fog index of 27.53
http://gunning-fog-index.com/fog.cgi
I was merely trying to help you. Your paragraph was just too tedious for me to want to read it. I am sure I am not alone.
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Tdbo
I hope the sentence structure used in this answer is not to complex for you or Al.
As a trained Engineer it is not too complex for me to follow. Your writing was not "too complex" for me. It broke many of the rules of good writing form and style. That made it hard to read. People that write clearly try to compose shorter sentences and shorter paragraphs. I try to compose paragraphs of no more than 6 sentences or maybe 150 words. I try to keep sentences shorter than 12 words.
You had a sentence in there of 54 words and a gunning-fog index of 27.53
http://gunning-fog-index.com/fog.cgi
I was merely trying to help you. Your paragraph was just too tedious for me to want to read it. I am sure I am not alone.
I appreciate what you are saying. However, I was simply trying to type a lot of information in a small posting box before the posting opportunity timed out. It was probably the longest post that I have ever made and I was dealing with time constraints, trying to make everything fit in one post. While I would not consider it a masterpiece, it conveyed the necessary information.
Originally Posted By: Tdbo
I hope the sentence structure used in this answer is not to complex for you or Al.
As a trained Engineer it is not too complex for me to follow. Your writing was not "too complex" for me. It broke many of the rules of good writing form and style. That made it hard to read. People that write clearly try to compose shorter sentences and shorter paragraphs. I try to compose paragraphs of no more than 6 sentences or maybe 150 words. I try to keep sentences shorter than 12 words.
You had a sentence in there of 54 words and a gunning-fog index of 27.53
http://gunning-fog-index.com/fog.cgi
I was merely trying to help you. Your paragraph was just too tedious for me to want to read it. I am sure I am not alone.
I appreciate what you are saying. However, I was simply trying to type a lot of information in a small posting box before the posting opportunity timed out. It was probably the longest post that I have ever made and I was dealing with time constraints, trying to make everything fit in one post. While I would not consider it a masterpiece, it conveyed the necessary information.
So where do you draw the line for peer-diagnosed aliments and prescriptions? Is "My friend seemed depressed and talked of suicide so I gave her some of my Wellbutrin" an okay situation? What about "He seemed hyper and couldn't concentrate, like ADHD, so I gave him some Ritalin"?
Finally, what if the girl had a reaction to the drug due to another condition? For instance Albuterol can aggravate epilepsy.
Finally, what if the girl had a reaction to the drug due to another condition? For instance Albuterol can aggravate epilepsy.
Originally Posted By: tom slick
So where do you draw the line for peer-diagnosed aliments and prescriptions? Is "My friend seemed depressed and talked of suicide so I gave her some of my Wellbutrin" an okay situation? What about "He seemed hyper and couldn't concentrate, like ADHD, so I gave him some Ritalin"?
Finally, what if the girl had a reaction to the drug due to another condition? For instance Albuterol can aggravate epilepsy.
More straw men.
So where do you draw the line for peer-diagnosed aliments and prescriptions? Is "My friend seemed depressed and talked of suicide so I gave her some of my Wellbutrin" an okay situation? What about "He seemed hyper and couldn't concentrate, like ADHD, so I gave him some Ritalin"?
Finally, what if the girl had a reaction to the drug due to another condition? For instance Albuterol can aggravate epilepsy.
More straw men.
Originally Posted By: JOD
She shouldn't be kicked out of school, given the circumstances
That's what the school is contemplating.
DUH.
She shouldn't be kicked out of school, given the circumstances
That's what the school is contemplating.
Gonna chime in on this one just one last time, I believe everyone is being heartfelt with there opinions, although we all differ to a degree. It appears both girls are in fair health now and thats positive.
the biggest hole i see is that these girls were in school, in Gym class, If there were any kind of real emergency 8th graders would FREAK and run to a teacher.. and were talking female 8th graders, I dont buy into any of the "life saving - fast thinking-emergency situation" talking points that have been brought up. A middle school girl shared a script with another middle school girl. If there were more juicy details to be had im sure the reporting staff would have included those details in the article.. no mention of life saving/CPR/ambulance rides ect.. just two middle school girls that shared a script.. I dont believe from what im reading there was any malace or bad intentions by the girl doing the shareing and i hope a expulsion is not in line for either girl, but a suspension while the details are sorted out is within reason.. and for future references i hope both of these girls learn something from this. Were all (Monday morning QB) this thing, myself included.. Again i hope both of these girls are not worse for wear after all this settles.
2 pennies
the biggest hole i see is that these girls were in school, in Gym class, If there were any kind of real emergency 8th graders would FREAK and run to a teacher.. and were talking female 8th graders, I dont buy into any of the "life saving - fast thinking-emergency situation" talking points that have been brought up. A middle school girl shared a script with another middle school girl. If there were more juicy details to be had im sure the reporting staff would have included those details in the article.. no mention of life saving/CPR/ambulance rides ect.. just two middle school girls that shared a script.. I dont believe from what im reading there was any malace or bad intentions by the girl doing the shareing and i hope a expulsion is not in line for either girl, but a suspension while the details are sorted out is within reason.. and for future references i hope both of these girls learn something from this. Were all (Monday morning QB) this thing, myself included.. Again i hope both of these girls are not worse for wear after all this settles.
2 pennies
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Wow! So some of you actually think expelling these 2 girls is the right thing to do and that serious "felonies" were committed. As amazing as it is to me it shows just why zero tolerance policies actually have been implemented. Because there are people out there with no common sense!
Some here actually think it is ok and actually proper to expel a girl trying to help a schoolmate/friend in medical distress. Those same people also seem to think it is proper under zero tolerance to expel the girl who was in medical distress for accepting help because she used the inhaler. I just don't get it?
I don't know if I should
or
???
I wonder how the self righteous of this thread would feel if it was their child who was expelled for either A - trying to help a schoolmate/friend who was in medical distress or B - for being the one who was sick and accepting the help? Me thinks you would be crying a different tune if that were the case.
UNBELIEVEABLE! The girl who acted fast to try and help her friend deserves some kind of commendation not to be expelled from school. All this teaches these girls( and the other students )is don't try and help anyone who needs it and don't accept any help if offered.
I just don't know what to say about where our country is today. Just so sad.
I totally agree with this post. Finally someone else with some sense.
Wow! So some of you actually think expelling these 2 girls is the right thing to do and that serious "felonies" were committed. As amazing as it is to me it shows just why zero tolerance policies actually have been implemented. Because there are people out there with no common sense!
Some here actually think it is ok and actually proper to expel a girl trying to help a schoolmate/friend in medical distress. Those same people also seem to think it is proper under zero tolerance to expel the girl who was in medical distress for accepting help because she used the inhaler. I just don't get it?
I don't know if I should
I wonder how the self righteous of this thread would feel if it was their child who was expelled for either A - trying to help a schoolmate/friend who was in medical distress or B - for being the one who was sick and accepting the help? Me thinks you would be crying a different tune if that were the case.
UNBELIEVEABLE! The girl who acted fast to try and help her friend deserves some kind of commendation not to be expelled from school. All this teaches these girls( and the other students )is don't try and help anyone who needs it and don't accept any help if offered.
I just don't know what to say about where our country is today. Just so sad.
I totally agree with this post. Finally someone else with some sense.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
More straw men.
Agreed..there are so many of them in this thread that some of them have escaped and are running around my computer room.
More straw men.
Agreed..there are so many of them in this thread that some of them have escaped and are running around my computer room.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: JOD
She shouldn't be kicked out of school, given the circumstances
That's what the school is contemplating.
DUH.
Contemplating. Considering. Since the girl a: broke school policy and b: broke state and federal law, her case should be reviewed....
What's so preposterous about this thread is that you, among many others, seek to deny the school the right to review this case. For several reasons (that you've dismissed as "Straw men", but in actuality are rooted in the law and in medical understanding) what she did was wrong. This was a prescription inhaler, not some OTC med.
Nothing asinine about reviewing the child's case and considering all the facts.
What's asinine is presuming to know more than doctors about the inhaler, or presuming to tell the school how to handle the situation when they have access to more of the facts.
What's really asinine is that the thread title is misleading. The school isn't applying zero-tolerance summary dismissal. The school is considering her case.
You don't know the outcome of that decision, so your point is specious.
Originally Posted By: JOD
She shouldn't be kicked out of school, given the circumstances
That's what the school is contemplating.
Contemplating. Considering. Since the girl a: broke school policy and b: broke state and federal law, her case should be reviewed....
What's so preposterous about this thread is that you, among many others, seek to deny the school the right to review this case. For several reasons (that you've dismissed as "Straw men", but in actuality are rooted in the law and in medical understanding) what she did was wrong. This was a prescription inhaler, not some OTC med.
Nothing asinine about reviewing the child's case and considering all the facts.
What's asinine is presuming to know more than doctors about the inhaler, or presuming to tell the school how to handle the situation when they have access to more of the facts.
What's really asinine is that the thread title is misleading. The school isn't applying zero-tolerance summary dismissal. The school is considering her case.
You don't know the outcome of that decision, so your point is specious.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: JOD
She shouldn't be kicked out of school, given the circumstances
That's what the school is contemplating.
DUH.
I'm sure the school has a policy in place so that certain sanctions are automatic, and then there's a process by which the incident is reviewed.
It's called due process, and most civilized societies, including ours, are based on this process. I'm sorry it seems to upset you so much.
Again, this is faux outrage. Get back to me if the kids are kicked out of school permanently.
Originally Posted By: JOD
She shouldn't be kicked out of school, given the circumstances
That's what the school is contemplating.
I'm sure the school has a policy in place so that certain sanctions are automatic, and then there's a process by which the incident is reviewed.
It's called due process, and most civilized societies, including ours, are based on this process. I'm sorry it seems to upset you so much.
Again, this is faux outrage. Get back to me if the kids are kicked out of school permanently.
Seems to me this thread is running in circles and doing nothing. A lot of what ifs and assumptions instead of just dealing with what is known.
No matter this particular story and it's not the best one for illustrating why zero tolerance is asinine, I still say zero tolerance is asinine even here.
Zero tolerance basically means that no matter the motive and outcome of breaking some rule no matter how dumb the rule is you receive full punishment. I dilike the idea of not considering motive and not adjusting punishment.
Some people make a good argument that zero tolerance makes sense for things like prescription drugs and medications. Things like how they are dangerous and harm more people than they help etc. It seems like the real problem is the prescriptions themself.
A better example of the stupidity of zero tolerance is when a boy pinches a girl and he's expelled and treat him like a sex offender. Or under "zero tolerance for bullying" a bully attacks another student and both get suspended. I think scenarios like this happen a lot under zero tolerance.
Zero tolerance basically means that no matter the motive and outcome of breaking some rule no matter how dumb the rule is you receive full punishment. I dilike the idea of not considering motive and not adjusting punishment.
Some people make a good argument that zero tolerance makes sense for things like prescription drugs and medications. Things like how they are dangerous and harm more people than they help etc. It seems like the real problem is the prescriptions themself.
A better example of the stupidity of zero tolerance is when a boy pinches a girl and he's expelled and treat him like a sex offender. Or under "zero tolerance for bullying" a bully attacks another student and both get suspended. I think scenarios like this happen a lot under zero tolerance.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Just another strawman, but this thread has me wondering how zero tolerance would apply when all schools have a hands off policy, and someone's drowning, falling, fainting, etc.
Well shannow once the unions and government get involved there is no happy outcome.
Schools don't teach kids to think anymore. So a zero tolerance policy coupled with asinine rules makes perfect sense (for them)
Just another strawman, but this thread has me wondering how zero tolerance would apply when all schools have a hands off policy, and someone's drowning, falling, fainting, etc.
Well shannow once the unions and government get involved there is no happy outcome.
Schools don't teach kids to think anymore. So a zero tolerance policy coupled with asinine rules makes perfect sense (for them)
I still say that a 10 day suspension and possible expulsion is over the top for what seems like a first offense with no malicious intent. I don't agree with zero % no tolerance regulations. There needs to be some common sense applied here. This is what our society has come to these days.
When I was in high school back in the 80's, People had guns in gun racks in the back window of their trucks and most guys carried pocket knives. Today you would be expelled from school and probably be locked up in Jail. It is only going to get worse.
Wayne
When I was in high school back in the 80's, People had guns in gun racks in the back window of their trucks and most guys carried pocket knives. Today you would be expelled from school and probably be locked up in Jail. It is only going to get worse.
Wayne
Originally Posted By: 65cuda
Seems to me this thread is running in circles and doing nothing. A lot of what ifs and assumptions instead of just dealing with what is known.
Fortunately, there is an excellent thread on Basement Humidity adjoining this one.
Seems to me this thread is running in circles and doing nothing. A lot of what ifs and assumptions instead of just dealing with what is known.
Fortunately, there is an excellent thread on Basement Humidity adjoining this one.
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