Public school zero tolerance policies are ASININE

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Originally Posted By: Astro14

Kids have no business giving other kids prescription drugs. Period.



Are you nuts? Of course they shouldn't, but we're talking about 2 13 year olds for crying out loud! Do you think they know all the dangers of mis-using prescription drugs?

So you effectively end their school careers over a simple mistake? A mistake that wasn't in any way intended to harm anyone? They weren't getting high on prescription narcotics or anything bad like that!
 
I agree zero tolerance is stupid. It doesn't take account circumstance or intent. Instead of teaching right and wrong it teaches rigid obedience to government authority. All that was required was a teaching moment for the kids, to not share prescriptions, what to do in similar emergencies etc.

Zero tolerance has nothing to do with protecting students, but creating followers. Following the rules of the rule maker whether its right or not.

A little off topic but I don't necessarily agree that an adult person who has a prescription and decides to give (not sell) it to another person who assumes all risks should be commiting a crime. I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance policies.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14

what if


What if what if what if? What if the inhaler suddenly burst into flames and the girl burned to death?

What if is akin to a straw man. Deal with the actual facts of the case.

Yes, the girl shouldn't have given her inhaler to her friend. But to expel BOTH of them from school? Idiocy. Doing that will do FAR more damage to both kids than what the inhaler did (or didn't do - what if...).
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: demarpaint


Good points, the flip side of the coin here is this: Don't help a person who is in need of help, walk the other way, you could be held liable or get in trouble if something goes wrong.


Well, define "help". In this case, "help" involves committing a felony? I don't get all of the faux outrage over this? Giving prescription drugs to someone for whom they aren't prescribed seems like a bad idea to me.


You think 2 13 year old girls know that giving prescription drugs to another person is a felony?
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Originally Posted By: sciphi
Perfect waste of a teachable moment. A better thing to do would have publicly praise the girl for her quick action, then take her into the principal's office and explain how what she did was well-intentioned and could have resulted in her friend's death if her friend was not suffering from an asthma attack. Then instruct a more socially-appropriate response. Most kids are smarter than most adults believe. They'll learn no matter what. Here they learned that helping a friend gets you expelled. Expulsion teaches the wrong lesson here, IMO.


Thank god! Someone with common sense!!!
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You expel kids when they bring guns and knives to school, not for making an honest mistake trying to help someone.
 
I usually have a problem with zero tolerance, but this is a controlled substance also. Maybe expelling is too rush, but the problem comes when the next time something comes up the parents will be all over the school about you didn't kick that kid out so why are you doing it to mine. If you want to blame someone try blaming all the parents that want to make excuses for whatever their kid does that has forced this zero tolerance pattern.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Perfect waste of a teachable moment. A better thing to do would have publicly praise the girl for her quick action, then take her into the principal's office and explain how what she did was well-intentioned and could have resulted in her friend's death if her friend was not suffering from an asthma attack. Then instruct a more socially-appropriate response. Most kids are smarter than most adults believe. They'll learn no matter what. Here they learned that helping a friend gets you expelled. Expulsion teaches the wrong lesson here, IMO.


Thank god! Someone with common sense!!!
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You expel kids when they bring guns and knives to school, not for making an honest mistake trying to help someone.

Exactly. Took the words right out of my mouth. But "Teachable Moment" in a school??..are you serious?
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: Astro14

what if


What if what if what if? What if the inhaler suddenly burst into flames and the girl burned to death?

What if is akin to a straw man. Deal with the actual facts of the case.

Yes, the girl shouldn't have given her inhaler to her friend. But to expel BOTH of them from school? Idiocy. Doing that will do FAR more damage to both kids than what the inhaler did (or didn't do - what if...).


OK - I was trying to explain why the law was written that way, so the straw man was explanatory, but not germane to the facts of the case. So, let's deal with the actual facts, and those alone.

Teenager A commits felony.

Teenager gets expelled.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Teenager B commits an act that is against school policy.

Published school policy consequence for that act: expulsion.

Teenager B gets expelled.

Yep, that one makes sense too...

As a father with 5 kids who have gone to high school (and one soon to go) I have had to read the school's policies and sign a statement that I, and the child, understand them. I am sure that both girls had to read the school's policy...so they can't claim ignorance...

What's missing from the story is the seriousness of teenager B's condition, the sequence of events, when the school nurse or 911 was involved...those are all mitigating...at this point all we know is that teenager A gave her inhaler to teenager B.

Happy to discuss the grey areas, I deal in them all the time...but some more facts would help...might be a great "teachable moment" as was said, or it might be that there is a problem that the administration is trying to address and they have their reasons...but, there I go with "what if" again...
 
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Originally Posted By: sciphi
Perfect waste of a teachable moment. A better thing to do would have publicly praise the girl for her quick action, then take her into the principal's office and explain how what she did was well-intentioned and could have resulted in her friend's death if her friend was not suffering from an asthma attack. Then instruct a more socially-appropriate response. Most kids are smarter than most adults believe. They'll learn no matter what. Here they learned that helping a friend gets you expelled. Expulsion teaches the wrong lesson here, IMO.


I agree. Try using a cell phone in one of these schools to dial 911 to get someone help. In fact here you can't even carry one. You get screwed for that too. But otoh I'd rather take a shot at an inhaler than watch someone die from an asthma attack. Imagine nothing was done and a student died as a result? Dammed if you do dammed if you don't.
 
The reaction to this is high-larious.

Okay, so she thought her friend was having and asthma attack, and loaned her her inhaler. Alright. So, you say that's wrong?

Well, what if she really WAS having an asthma attack, and her friend did nothing. If it was severe enough, she could have even died. And then you would all be complaining and saying she stood by and did nothing.

At least she tried to help. The way most school nurses and teachers are these days, they would have said she was fine and made her deal with it.

Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

I have to agree, that they are facing expulsion over this is outrageous. The schools these days are so afraid of being sued, and are practically becoming police states.

Do most of you even know what to do if someone is having an asthma attack? I do, because my mom has severe asthma. What is it? Give her her [censored] inhaler. There aren't really many other things that help that much in an attack.
 
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How many incidents over the past year had to do with Albuterol prescription inhalers being used by someone, whom a doctor said, no way should you get your hands on this?

How many incidents had to do with kids sharing peanuts with other kids who have peanut allergies?

One of the substances is under greater control than the other, for reasons that make the most sense to the puppeteers.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick R

Okay, so she thought her friend was having and asthma attack, and loaned her her inhaler. Alright. So, you say that's wrong?

Well, what if she really WAS having an asthma attack, and her friend did nothing.


why is that the only option available?

Were they on a desert island or something, or was there an instructor around, maybe one who was a little more equipped to handle the situation?

If you're going to play the "what if" game, what if she had a paradoxical reaction? I'd suggest Googling the name "Severent" and doing some light reading. Meta-analysis on beta-2 agonists show that you're about 2-3 times more likely to die from using an inhaler than not using it, so your "what if" answer falls a little flat to me. There's a reason that these aren't OTC.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick R
The reaction to this is high-larious.

Okay, so she thought her friend was having and asthma attack, and loaned her her inhaler. Alright. So, you say that's wrong?

Well, what if she really WAS having an asthma attack, and her friend did nothing. If it was severe enough, she could have even died. And then you would all be complaining and saying she stood by and did nothing.

At least she tried to help. The way most school nurses and teachers are these days, they would have said she was fine and made her deal with it.

Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

I have to agree, that they are facing expulsion over this is outrageous. The schools these days are so afraid of being sued, and are practically becoming police states.

Do most of you even know what to do if someone is having an asthma attack? I do, because my mom has severe asthma. What is it? Give her her [censored] inhaler. There aren't really many other things that help that much in an attack.


Here's an even more frightening scenario. Some schools don't allow the kids to carry the enhalers. They have to be kept in the office. Rescue inhalers don't do much good in an emergency locked in a cabinet.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
How many incidents over the past year had to do with Albuterol prescription inhalers being used by someone, whom a doctor said, no way should you get your hands on this?

How many incidents had to do with kids sharing peanuts with other kids who have peanut allergies?

One of the substances is under greater control than the other, for reasons that make the most sense to the puppeteers.


Speaking of peanut allergies... a new study was recently released that said there are around 14% of the public that claims to have a food allergy. IIRC the actual figure determined by the study was around 2% that have an actual allergy that is life threatening (anaphalactic shock). The rest just have food intolerance problems that lead to gastrointestinal distress aka upset tummy or the runs. But just try to convince the self-diagnosed 12% that they aren't going to die from being around nuts.

Another interesting study revealed that our obsession with hand sanatizers and the OMG Timmy was your hands crowd is causing a rise in weakened immune systems in kids when they reach adolescence. Having not been exposed to germs do to the constant hand washing and sanitizer means they never get the exposure most of us had as kids to help "prime" their immune systems for later in life. The doc who was discussing the study on the show I was listening to said, "In other words a little dirt on Jonny's fingers when he eats that PB&J isn't going to harm him and will actually be beneficial in the long run."
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
I didn't discuss intent, and I didn't say that it was "to get high" at all...but what if the friend in this case had an allergic/adverse reaction (becuase of other meds of whihc the firend was unaware) and died as a result?

Unless you're a licensed medical professional, you don't give out prescription drugs...you don't have the training, you might do more harm than good...and that's why it's illegal.

It's pretty simple...

After reading this whole thread, i have to side with Astro, Now, If the recieving little girl was dead right now the entire outlook of this topic would be different, i agree there needs to be more details (see facts) but with the facts provided this is pretty cut and dry to me.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
A girl gave her friend a puff on her inhaler because she thought her friend was having an asthma attack and both kids are facing expulsion over zero tolerance drug policies.

Our society and public schools are churning out robots because of this kind of nanny state stupidity.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_19834820


Well...they don't specify the medicine in the inhaler, however, the most common is albuterol. Since albuterol is a controlled (prescription) substance, I am with the school on this one.

Since when is it OK for a kid to give presecription drugs to another kid? Is she a medical doctor? Is she fully capable of correctly diagnosing the other child's condition? Did she know what other medications the girl was on to preclude adverse drug interactions? Did she know the other child's medical history to know if albuterol was safe to administer?

If your kid gave my kid prescription drugs in school and the school didn't do something about it, I would be before the school board...and depending on other circumstances, you and I might be in court...giving someone else your prescription drugs is both illegal and potentially dangerous to the recipient.

Kids have no business giving other kids prescription drugs. Period.

If this is a serious post it is with out a doubt one ignorant ones I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

The girl clearly did the correct thing. Good for her!! If she had an inhaler she obviously knows the seriousness of the situation and has been trained in it's use.

The stupidity of the bureaucrats running our schools and their apologists is alarming, even when your considering that bureaucrats are typically ignorant by definition.
 
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Wow! So some of you actually think expelling these 2 girls is the right thing to do and that serious "felonies" were committed. As amazing as it is to me it shows just why zero tolerance policies actually have been implemented. Because there are people out there with no common sense!

Some here actually think it is ok and actually proper to expel a girl trying to help a schoolmate/friend in medical distress. Those same people also seem to think it is proper under zero tolerance to expel the girl who was in medical distress for accepting help because she used the inhaler. I just don't get it?
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I don't know if I should
crackmeup2.gif
or
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???

I wonder how the self righteous of this thread would feel if it was their child who was expelled for either A - trying to help a schoolmate/friend who was in medical distress or B - for being the one who was sick and accepting the help? Me thinks you would be crying a different tune if that were the case.
wink.gif


UNBELIEVEABLE! The girl who acted fast to try and help her friend deserves some kind of commendation not to be expelled from school. All this teaches these girls( and the other students )is don't try and help anyone who needs it and don't accept any help if offered.

I just don't know what to say about where our country is today. Just so sad.
 
I agree. The school policies today are ridiculous in many instances, too many lawsuits and people running around paranoid is most likely the cause. To me the message being sent here is to turn, look the other way, and run, not walk if you see someone in need of help. A pretty lousy message if you ask me. Any chance the girl needing help forgot her inhaler at home?
 
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Wow! So some of you actually think expelling these 2 girls is the right thing to do and that serious "felonies" were committed. As amazing as it is to me it shows just why zero tolerance policies actually have been implemented. Because there are people out there with no common sense!

Some here actually think it is ok and actually proper to expel a girl trying to help a schoolmate/friend in medical distress. Those same people also seem to think it is proper under zero tolerance to expel the girl who was in medical distress for accepting help because she used the inhaler. I just don't get it?
21.gif


I don't know if I should
crackmeup2.gif
or
33.gif
???

I wonder how the self righteous of this thread would feel if it was their child who was expelled for either A - trying to help a schoolmate/friend who was in medical distress or B - for being the one who was sick and accepting the help? Me thinks you would be crying a different tune if that were the case.
wink.gif


UNBELIEVEABLE! The girl who acted fast to try and help her friend deserves some kind of commendation not to be expelled from school. All this teaches these girls( and the other students )is don't try and help anyone who needs it and don't accept any help if offered.

I just don't know what to say about where our country is today. Just so sad.


I agree with all your points. Well put.
When my daughter was in high school she was afraid to take Advil to school for fear of being expelled. Advil is classified as a drug and must ONLY be administered by the school nurse (who wasn't even at the school half the time.)
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Edit: If you want to add another "what if" - what if girl B WAS actually on an inhaler but forgot her's or ran out and girl A knew that and was just loaning her some! We know how teenagers "forget" things all the time.
 
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