PTFE

[Ross]

I use to use a PTFE product called QMI. It was suppose to use a much smaller particle size ptfe.
I nevery had any problems with it (that I know of) and I did notice that my car would turn over much better in the dead of winter.

Having said that, there has been such bad press about ptfe, that I no longer use it. I still use the QMI fuel treatment.

 

[Ray H]

Regardless of particle size, the stuff has an undesirable tendency to clump together. Not good for the life of the oil filter - or potentially worse, small oil passages after the filter goes into bypass. I used one bottle of Slick 50 (tm) in a '75 Mercedes 300D and regretted it. For those unfamiliar with the old Benz 5-cyl inline diesel, it used a cartridge-style oil filter with a fine mesh nylon (or some such) "pre-filter" to trap larger particles. Cleaning the pre-filter just consisted of a few swishes through solvent at oil and filter change time. The next time I changed oil I found that pre-filter hopelessly clogged with a pale waxy-like goo. I'll give anyone reading this post three guesses as to what the "goo" was - and the first two don't count. Fortunately no ill effects for the engine, but a new pre-filter set me back $25.00. I guess I was lucky at that - a relatively cheap "precious learning experience".

Gawd, that was a great car! Get in, fire up the glow plugs briefly, start the motor, and putter off leading a trail of black smoke. Really cool at traffic signals if a diesel truck was behind me - wafting diesel smoke into his cabin ventilation system for a change. Life can be sweet!

[ October 09, 2003, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[Ray H]

Deleted dupicate post.

[ October 09, 2003, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[deepsquat]

quote:

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Originally posted by Robbie Alexander:

quote:

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Originally posted by deepsquat:
I ran tufoil in my car summer of '02...did not increase wear, but oxidation and nitration dramatically increased..it also has a boatload of Moly in it.

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HUMMM... Giving me more reason to go for the test.
NO increase in wear, hugh. As you have seen I do have some oil with Some Moly, may be more up to the test than I thought. I was to figure even if it did increase the wear, a 2-3000 mile then a test and by the time I have 5-6K on it maybe 8K then the results are back from the 1st test... if not good, a quick drain and maybe a flush and a hundred mile trip and another oilchange ought to get any junk out.

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What I did was run Mobile 1 for 29,000 miles..tested then ran Tufoil ( in the same 29,000 old oil,) went 3400 additional miles and drained here is a quick before and after ##

code:

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copper 1 1

iron 14 17

Al 2 3

Lead 2 3

Moly 59 356



Oxidation 0 28

Sulfer 12 36

Nitration 21 27

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so you can see wear # did not rise much but the Oxidation went from none to 28 ! and the sulfer tripled! I did it as a experament, as no one has any UAO ## for any snake oil, I myself would not waste my money on it again.

 

[Mystic]

I never tried the 'big one' PTFE additive but I did try another one that seemed to have impressive credentials-it had even been talked about in a national magazine article.

I stopped using this product quite a while back. I went to the web site again after all this time, and the advertising for this product was virtually exactly the same as it had been a long time ago! They even were talking about the same lab experiments that they supposedly had been working on years ago! Man, those are some long running experiments! I wonder if it might be time to terminate those experiments and maybe try something new!

 

[nicholas]

"i have put fine sand in my crankcase a couple of times, and my engine still runs strong"....

just because you can not see the damage , does not mean it is not happening......

dupont has stated that their product has no use in an internal combustion engine...they use extremely high temps to get it to stick onto pans......
if this were false , you can bet dupont would get on the money band wagon and come out with engine miracle in a can.....

people, if you wanna spend money give me 10 bucks , and i can take your cars for a drive , beat the crap out of it , and when you get it back , i'm sure you will not notice a difference.....

my-2cents

 

[Mystic]

What really turned me off from the PTFE product that I once used was the fact that their web site never changed. They kept using the same examples, and talking about the same lab experiments that they had been talking about in the past. How credible can somebody be if they never use new examples and just go right on talking about the same old lab experiments?
When are those lab experiments going to be completed, anyway-in the year 2050?

Another thing that will disturb me about a web site is bad misspelling of words. Now, I am not saying that I am the world's greatest speller-but if you have a professional web site and you can't spell all that well, then hire somebody who can spell.

I used to be interested in each new engine treatment or oil supplement that came along-I guess I had some mistrust of the big oil companies and I guess I also wished that some little guy somewhere could take the big guys off their high horse. There was considerable evidence in the past that some times motor oils would not have adequate additive levels and would be mislabeled as to viscosity.

But I think motor oils are better today. Find a quality motor oil and use that. If you use a conventional motor oil maybe use a synthetic oil in the wintertime to reduce start-up wear. If you have a sludged up engine use Auto-RX (which is being tested now by Aaron) or physically clean the engine or use Amsoil Engine Cleaner followed by a couple of oil changes.

 

[newtoncd8]

just because you can not see the damage , does not mean it is not happening......


What kind of damage are you referring to??

With regard to our 1988 Camry, by 300,000 miles I suspect I would have seen/heard some type of damage if the PTFE would have done anything. I used Slick50 in the Camry a couple of times in the early/mid 1990s.

I haven't used Slick50 or Tufoil in a long time (since mid 1990s, I have used Mobil 1); and to be honest, I am not sure they actually do anything.

But, from my limited experience (only used in 4 vehicles) no noticeable ill affects were noted/obvious.

 

[TC]

Consumer Report's 1996 motor oil test included putting Slick 50 in three taxicab engines, and STP Engine Treatment (a discontinued "wear reducer") in three other taxi engines, for 60,000 miles with oil and treatment changes every 6,000 miles. Their conclusions: "When we dissasembled the engines and checked for wear and deposits, we found no discernible benefits from any of these products."

I know that some people have problems with the Consumer Reports test ("Taxicabs are not driven like street cars..." "Few cold start-ups with taxicabs..." "Not a statistically valid sampling...", etc.), and I'm not intending to revive those arguments. But the fact remains that this is the only independent (non-product manufacturer's) Teflon test I know of (please correct me if you know of other independent tests), and all six taxis using these snake oils over 60,000 miles showed no difference in measured wear. If there were benefits to PTFE in motor oil, it would HAD TO have shown up in some manner in CR's test. But it didn't.

 

[biscuitboy]

The following link has probably been posted here before but is a good critique of PTFE....

http://skepdic.com/slick50.html

 

[newtoncd8]

I am not implying Slick 50 is good for a vehicle, but in our 1988 Camry (4 cyl), I used it a few times and the car is still running strong. The Camry should be turning 300,000 miles by the end of the year. This is with regular doses of a mixture of 10W30 and 5W30 Pennzoil (changed every 3-4K) with Toyota OEM filters.

On another note (back in late 80s), my 1984 Honda Accord used to make a loud screaching noise in the middle of the winter in Omaha, NE. I put in Slick 50 and the noise went away. Unfortunately, 2 years later, I totalled the car, but I don't believe Slick 50 was to blame...

And finally, my Dad put it in a couple of his vehicles and they are still going strong.

Again, I am not advocating that Slick 50 is the greatest product in the world, but from my experience, it doesn't appear to do any damage.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

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Originally posted by TC:
*-*-*-*-* and all six taxis using these snake oils over 60,000 miles showed no difference in measured wear. If there were benefits to PTFE in motor oil, it would HAD TO have shown up in some manner in CR's test. But it didn't.

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No notice of any wear, Hummm, so if all it does in a limited quantity (a small dose)is improve
milage, perhaps reduce oil burn, then it would seem to be a cost factor (does it pay for itself?)

 

[Cressida]

Interesting topic as I was looking over a synthetic motor oil 10w-30 (brand name of Greased Lightning) that said it met the European A3 spec as well as about ever other test/spec that is considered good. Reading the marketing material they really emphasised their PTFE additives and how it was the slipperest substance on the planet. I elected to pass because of that

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cressida:
*-*-*-*-*Reading the marketing material they really emphasised their PTFE additives and how it was the slipperest substance on the planet. I elected to pass because of that

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I would too in most instances.
In general I agree with a lot of what they guys think on PTFE, but yet some points I don't. I mean WHERE are the tests that PROVE it is a failure, or least if the particle is small enough, yeah okay maybe it in some cases tends to stick in one area, but does that mean that there can't be a formula where it won't be beneficial?

I think in real old engines maybe worn with burning problems, SURE, MUST go for it, I would, heck I've done the RESTORE several times and you know what it worked. I even did more than one PTFE before, a couple worked per se and the rest I donno.... but that doesn't mean that it couldn't benefit you on at least GAS milage, and if the WEAR numbers stay about the same, or say go up very very slight, then IMVHO it may well be worth the use. It all depends on Goals and application.

Who cares if it is the best, if it cost 5-gillion dollars, when something at 1Billion will go the distance and pay for itself, to me that is the best (pay for your way).

Point is I don't think a lot of people will agree with me but you have to understand, Somethings gotta give some place. Got to, there's no free lunch except from Momma. Either the Oil will WEAR and cost money or the Engine will, and for certain they both will, but at what rate do YOU/I what EACH to WEAR. This IMHO is the REAL question no one has brought up. What is the ROI? What is the NUMBER / Ratio that's most cost effective, where's the formula to figure out (we need a bean counter here) What price to pay for oil and for how many miles that's cost effective for THIS CAR.

I'm still thinking of doing the additive test, I just don't know about which one, because although I think it may be beneficial, it (PTFE) I am sure has more than one quality/grade just like or I assume Silicon and other additives. And I'm sure that there are ones that do better than others.

No, I'm not just gonna pick just any one off the shelf, If I do this I'm gonna figure it out right or wrong and weigh all the facts and attempt to weed out all the fable, and here or any board on the web has both... then I'll shoot for it.

 

[TsLeng]

First post here.

Anyway, I just want to know that can I use PTFE in my honda moped? Its a single cylinder, air-cooled and the oil also lubricates the rotary 4-speed gearbox.

Also, it doesn't have an oil filter. I assume the clogging issue will not be a problem because of this.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

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Originally posted by TsLeng:

First post here.

Anyway, I just want to know that can I use PTFE in my honda moped? Its a single cylinder, air-cooled and the oil also lubricates the rotary 4-speed gearbox.

Also, it doesn't have an oil filter. I assume the clogging issue will not be a problem because of this.

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Have no Idea about Mopeds. My first gut reaction is to say do nothing to it. Just use the BEST oil you can find for it, and change it often. Use a fuel conditioner if you can to help keep it lubed.

I don't know if moly would help or not. You may want to do research from Honda and see if it would be good for you... if so, You may if you can't find an oil with it, decide to use an additive with some in it instead. I would think though that you need to look into VI improvers or an oil with a better VI than another.

How much oil does one Moped take? I think if it were me, for sure, I'd buy in BULK and change on a short cycle.

 

[DavoNF]

Not a good idea in a moped because of possible clutch problems. Just use the recommended oil.

Dave

 

[TsLeng]

1 oil change = about 850 ml. Its very little.
Mostly I use automobile oil, I don't use special motorbike oil. About the short change interval, yes, the manual racommends it every 2000kms.

Yeah, I was wondering about the clutch thing too.

 

[jsharp]

Lubricants with ptfe seem to work really well on the sliding surfaces of small arms. Break Free CLP, Tufoil, and Rem Oil are a few of them. Notice how lightly loaded those parts are though.

No thanks as an engine treatment...

 

[crashz]

An auto upholster friend of mine use to get powdered teflon from Dupont directly as a fabric treatment ingredient. So he used to put about 6 oz. of the dry powder in with M1 in his slightly built 454. He drove the truck hard, (4.56 gears, 3 speed auto, 4x4) speeding in the summer and plowing in the winter. The motor would routinely run at 3-5K.

Guess what? The engine failed once a year due to excessive wear. Failed so much that he kept a spare. He would constantly be rebuilding one of those motors. He wouldn't listen to me when I told him that he might as well throw a handfull of sand in there at each oil change. He got a new truck, a deisel, and I begged him just to try regular 15w-40 with out anything else. Truck has been running on the original motor for 10 yrs now.

Leason learned: PTFE in hanfulls of dry powder is no better than handfulls of gravel at lubricating engines.