Price cut and free charging for Tesla

[alarmguy]

Until the day comes that "all the other automakers" are producing profit margins anywhere near what Tesla makes, yes Tesla will continue to be the envy among all makers. And considering that the Model 3 is outselling the extremely popular Toyota Camry I think that is something that other automakers are envious of as well.

Just wait until the next round of gas price hikes comes around. And we all know that it will. Those "educated, wealthy, liberal leaning people from big cities" that Elon has alienated will cry like little girls and get in line to buy a Tesla. And being that they are "educated" they won't buy another brand of EV because they are smart enough to know that cars like the Bolt, Mach-e and others are junk.

We'll see who's opinion is more accurate by the end of 2023. Let's revisit the topic then.

I see these comments a lot. (just talking)
Tesla filled a void with a battery powered engine, that's it, nothing more. Now all the other makers will be offering that as well. People tend to compare one model of a Tesla against one model of a non Tesla, wow that is convenient. The amount of vehicles Tesla builds compared to the rest of the world is insignificant.
Gas Prices this one makes me laugh (remember just discussing) I think the 10 percenters actually believe the other 90% of the population are all going to want a car that cost 10's of thousands of dollars more so they dont have to buy gas? Gas is cheap, always will be, at times some spikes but never, ever will a Tesla make up for gas prices. It's not cheap in some "bubble" states but they vote for that stuff. Electric isnt cheap there either. It's only a tiny percent of the country with these outrageous costs.
Gas right now on this coast is $2.44 a gallon. Way too cheap, I paid over a $1 a gallon 40 years ago for goodness sakes. Gas prices are something people like to whine about.

Tesla fit and finish is laughable compared to vehicles in its peers as to price.
Americans in another year will be streaming/driving out to their local dealers to see all the new ICE and EV models in one showroom. The majority of Americans are not going to spend $60,000+ on a car off the internet when there is a store right down the block they can drive too and have it serviced. Tesla knows that and is scrambling to get service centers going. Not only that the median car price is almost 2/3ds that price or less.

Sorry, facts speak for themselves. Right now Tesla has a problem, heck, some people just lost their life savings investing in it if they sold or just have huge unrealized losses right now.
It's not like I want anything to fail but I do get passionate when people are so jaded to a corporation that they ignore the facts. Tesla sells nothing that is unique. This isnt the day of the early 1990s when Intel came up with the worlds best and almost only pentium processor. (now look where intel is)
Even their "leader" (Elon) has admitted that they have problems, over production, lackluster sales and a boatload of competition from every corner of the world. All this justifies a company to sell up to 100 times earnings? Time will tell. I already told for the last almost full year. Tesla one day will be priced at a multiple like that of other car makers, assuming they survive. It's just a car!

Gosh, I love the "profit margin" thing, you dont honestly think the public gives a rat when they buy a car do you?
BTW - keep an eye on those Tesla corporate profits moving into the future. Great profit margins, zero earnings in the USA market for 2021. GM actually had earnings.
The stock market looks forward it would be negligent of them to discount the boatloads of competition from makers that will be selling both ICE and EV.

Meanwhile the worlds guru's have slashed in HALF the predicated demand for EVs world wide! Just recently! Half! *LOL*
To me personally, I think Toyota is going to hit this out of the ballpark going slow into EVs and I think GM once again, as it has for decades behind the eight ball saying they are going to discontinue ICE production, hopefully they can change that plan easy.

Im not sure of what I am about to say but I think its a possibility, its WAY to soon to know but we very well could end up with a world wide glut of EVs that people dont want. I don think so because ramp up time for companies takes time and I assume can change production schedules but I do think, some companies may go out of business by jumping all in.

BTW - again, just discussing, time for me to go, hope everyone has a nice Christmas!

 

[edyvw]

Until the day comes that "all the other automakers" are producing profit margins anywhere near what Tesla makes, yes Tesla will continue to be the envy among all makers. And considering that the Model 3 is outselling the extremely popular Toyota Camry I think that is something that other automakers are envious of as well.

Just wait until the next round of gas price hikes comes around. And we all know that it will. Those "educated, wealthy, liberal leaning people from big cities" that Elon has alienated will cry like little girls and get in line to buy a Tesla. And being that they are "educated" they won't buy another brand of EV because they are smart enough to know that cars like the Bolt, Mach-e and others are junk.

We'll see who's opinion is more accurate by the end of 2023. Let's revisit the topic then.

Talking about cult.

EV’s are struggling in Germany! Germany! When was the last time you were there and stopped on Aral to fill up? Did you convert price to $ per gallon? And yet those people prefer small turbo gas or les so diesel engines.

Editor I worked for in car magazine some 18yrs ago sent me email few months ago about how he tested new Mercedes C220cdi. Diesel with small electric engine. 75mpg!

As mentioned, fuel flactuates. In 2007/08 no one thought barrel will go below $148 ever again. And in 2015 I paid diesel $1.56 per gallon.

 

[JeffKeryk]

@DwightFrye TSLA stock has taken a beating. Those who think short term seem to think this is the end. But TSLA has always been a roller coaster. There is no sales number problem and certainly not a profit margin margin. Heck, you can't even order a Model 3 Performance right now. There are zero available.

@edyvw Posts Tesla sales are off in Germany. He has it backwards.

@alarmguy Posts car buyers do not care about margins. He's probably right. But car companies do, they live and die by margins. All companies do. No one has lost anything on TSLA (or any stock) unless they sell at a loss. Buy high and sell low? Not a recommended strategy. Plus, anyone who bought before Aug 2020 is still doing fine from a valuation standpoint. I still should have bought stock instead of the Model 3 four years ago. My money would have increased 5x.

Are you a short term thinker or a long term thinker? I am a long term thinker, planner and plan executer. If you can't roll with the blows, the market, and certainly not TSLA, may not be for you.
Some see disaster; others see opportunity.

 

[alarmguy]

@alarmguy Posts car buyers do not care about margins. He's probably right. But car companies do, they live and die by margins. All companies do. No one has lost anything on TSLA (or any stock) unless they sell at a loss. Buy high and sell low? Not a recommended strategy. Plus, anyone who bought before Aug 2020 is still doing fine from a valuation standpoint. I still should have bought stock instead of the Model 3 four years ago. My money would have increased 5x.

Wiping away 2 years worth of stock performance can be questionable for some and to examine the reason why if they going to continue to hold.
Much worse for those who bought the hype in the last two years. Nothing wrong for those who want to speculate but I think for some, expected better performance in the last year, than let's say Bitcoin.
Stock market looks forward not backwards, so those who care should ask themselves what do they see for Tesla vs the other major vehicle makers and what does Tesla have that the public wants that those other makers dont have.

 

[edyvw]

@DwightFrye TSLA stock has taken a beating. Those who think short term seem to think this is the end. But TSLA has always been a roller coaster. There is no sales number problem and certainly not a profit margin margin. Heck, you can't even order a Model 3 Performance right now. There are zero available.

@edyvw Posts Tesla sales are off in Germany. He has it backwards.

@alarmguy Posts car buyers do not care about margins. He's probably right. But car companies do, they live and die by margins. All companies do. No one has lost anything on TSLA (or any stock) unless they sell at a loss. Buy high and sell low? Not a recommended strategy. Plus, anyone who bought before Aug 2020 is still doing fine from a valuation standpoint. I still should have bought stock instead of the Model 3 four years ago. My money would have increased 5x.

Are you a short term thinker or a long term thinker? I am a long term thinker, planner and plan executer. If you can't roll with the blows, the market, and certainly not TSLA, may not be for you.
Some see disaster; others see opportunity.

You obviously don’t pay attention to dynamics of whole market in Germany. Also, VW caught up with Tesla strictly in EV market. And, of course, since Tesla doesn’t have ICE or hybrid, they can’t catch up with anyone.
As before, Tesla is betting on trend.
I remember just last year in many instances, you in particular said that this scenario is absolutely impossible.
So, pleased don’t claim now how we really don’t understand this “vision,” and that this is some 4th dimensional chess game that Elon is playing.
On 02/24 a lot of people claimed Putin was playing same chess game, and after some 100,000 dead and wounded Russian soldiers, they still claim same thing.

I mean Tesla stock is in free fall, lost $800bln of valuation since April, $460bln of that since October, and here we are witnessing members saying that all this is just a plan.

 

[Trav]

Talking about cult.

EV’s are struggling in Germany! Germany! When was the last time you were there and stopped on Aral to fill up? Did you convert price to $ per gallon? And yet those people prefer small turbo gas or les so diesel engines.

Editor I worked for in car magazine some 18yrs ago sent me email few months ago about how he tested new Mercedes C220cdi. Diesel with small electric engine. 75mpg!

As mentioned, fuel flactuates. In 2007/08 no one thought barrel will go below $148 ever again. And in 2015 I paid diesel $1.56 per gallon.

Some guys have swallowed this EV thing hook line and the sinker is bouncing off their chin.

Tesla may not be in the best condition.

What is Tesla struggling with?


Strong competition in China and Europe

Musk's auto company faces similar battles in Europe, the second-biggest EV market, behind China. An October Counterpoint report found that Tesla's second quarter sales fell over 50% from the year before. A significant factor was its pandemic-induced supply-chain issues in China.Dec 9, 2022

Over 10 Percent of Tesla Model S EVs Fail Germany’s Strict Inspection After 3 Years

It's actual hard data on Tesla's quality issues as seen in the wild.

www.thedrive.com

Tesla accused of environmental rule violations in U.S. and Germany

The EPA accused Tesla last week of failing to prove it is in compliance with federal emissions standards for hazardous air pollutants.

www.cnbc.com

 

[JeffKeryk]

Who managed the the pandemic best?
Name an auto company with a balance sheet anywhere near as strong as Tesla's.

So much for the big boys.
@edyvw check your numbers.

 

[edyvw]

Who managed the the pandemic best?
Name an auto company with a balance sheet anywhere near as strong as Tesla's.

So much for the big boys.
@edyvw check your numbers.

Willys-Overland produced Willys, won WWII, and yet they don’t exist any more.

On this planet though:

 

[JeffKeryk]

Willys-Overland produced Willys, won WWII, and yet they don’t exist any more.

On this planet though:

View attachment 132250

You said VW caught Tesla on EV sales. Can you support that? Thanks in advance!
Another question for you: What is VW profit margin on their EV BU? Have they ever made any money?
Heck, what are their margins as a whole?

 

[edyvw]

You said VW caught Tesla on EV sales. Can you support that? Thanks in advance!
Another question for you: What is VW profit margin on their EV BU? Have they ever made any money?
Heck, what are their margins as a whole?

Tesla sold 52,000 EV’s in Germany,VW 46,000.
Now, think where was VW in EV game 2yrs ago.

 

[Trav]

In Europe it is and in 18 months they will pass Tesla in the USA.

Volkswagen Will Surpass Tesla EV Sales By 2024 New Report Says

According to this Bloomberg Intelligence report, Tesla will keep its position for another 18 months before being dethroned.

insideevs.com

The report points to the fact that the Volkswagen group already sells more electric cars in Europe (310,000 vehicles sold in 2021 versus Tesla’s under 170,000

 

[alarmguy]

Who managed the the pandemic best?
Name an auto company with a balance sheet anywhere near as strong as Tesla's.

If you could present the balance sheet numbers of the top 10 manufacturers in the world it would be a help since you're mentioning it and asking others for data.
Ok, with that said, from an investing point Wall Street could care less about today and yesterday.
Where will the top manufacturers balance sheets be in the next 24 months, not today and not the past 24 months.
BTW - I dont want to let myself say never to Tesla or any other company. Things change just like Tesla's stock is down by a massive margin and people lost realized or unrealized life savings (no different than Bit Coin) things can change overnight with a new explosive product or a further hammering of the stock price to a point that gets oversold. Heck I thought at one time even 175 would have looked like a bargain, How fast things can change to a point in my mind of wondering if Musk will lose control of Tesla and get booted from his CEO position. Crazier things have happened I would imagine on Wall Street. Let's not forget about Elizabeth Warren salivating about taking him down.

 

[mk378]

I'm expecting one of the big car companies (most likely Toyota) to buy Tesla once the price is low enough.

 

[Dave Hess]

alarmguy,

I agree with everything you posted above. No doubt Tesla faces some serious headwinds in the very near future.

Some folks were able to ride the Tesla wave up and realized the crazy exponential stock gains would eventually come crashing down. I sold all my Tesla last year along with Apple and Amazon and headed to the exit.

Crazy about of media buzz around the Cybertruck and 2 years later no truck….

Are Tesla’s best days behind them as more car manufacturers really start ramping up EV production ?

Tesla Joins my Imploded Stocks, -70% from Peak: Object of Religious Veneration Turns into Automaker | Wolf Street

wolfstreet.com

 

[JeffKeryk]

Tesla sold 52,000 EV’s in Germany,VW 46,000.
Now, think where was VW in EV game 2yrs ago.

You said caught up.
What is VW's margin? I believe they are losing money on every one they sell.

 

[edyvw]

You said caught up.
What is VW's margin? I believe they are losing money on every one they sell.

I have no idea what is their margin. I am not part of any cult, so really don’t spend time bothering with every detail.

BMW loses money on M3 too, yet it is one of their most important products.

By the way, Tesla sold 935,000 vehicles last year. VW sold 8.5 million, if you want to talk numbers.

 

[JeffKeryk]

If you could present the balance sheet numbers of the top 10 manufacturers in the world it would be a help since you're mentioning it and asking others for data.
Ok, with that said, from an investing point Wall Street could care less about today and yesterday.
Where will the top manufacturers balance sheets be in the next 24 months, not today and not the past 24 months.
BTW - I dont want to let myself say never to Tesla or any other company. Things change just like Tesla's stock is down by a massive margin and people lost realized or unrealized life savings (no different than Bit Coin) things can change overnight with a new explosive product or a further hammering of the stock price to a point that gets oversold. Heck I thought at one time even 175 would have looked like a bargain, How fast things can change to a point in my mind of wondering if Musk will lose control of Tesla and get booted from his CEO position. Crazier things have happened I would imagine on Wall Street. Let's not forget about Elizabeth Warren salivating about taking him down.

Here ya go...
Tesla Balance Sheet vs VW Balance Sheet
I suggest you look at the key metrics: ROA, LT debt growth, cash growth.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I have no idea what is their margin. I am not part of any cult, so really don’t spend time bothering with every detail.

BMW loses money on M3 too, yet it is one of their most important products.

By the way, Tesla sold 935,000 vehicles last year. VW sold 8.5 million, if you want to talk numbers.

Margin has nothing to do with a cult; it is a key business metric. It speaks to profitability.
Gross Margin measures monies put into a product as compared to return.
A company with high margin shows strong cash from operations, which allows for growth or other opportunities.

 

[alarmguy]

Here ya go...
Tesla Balance Sheet vs VW Balance Sheet
I suggest you look at the key metrics: ROA, LT debt growth, cash growth.

I only brought it up because you did. I’m not interested you just made a statement that their balance sheet was the best in the industry. If you had a balance sheet, showing the rest of the industry and Tesla, not one car company and Tesla.
It really doesn’t matter to me. For the last two years, the stock has gone nowhere and it’s in danger of going lower.

The sad part is in those two years it shot up like a rocket and some people purchased thinking it would continue to go up. If they got in and held for the long term they my find themselves in a bit of trouble. let’s be realistic nobody buys a stock and expects it to go down 25 to 70%.

Short term, the ones that made big money were the ones who shorted the stock like Bill Gates.
As an investor, you already know I’m not against any company. I just apply my own personal common sense this time I was certainly right about Tesla this year.

I would most likely feel that way about any company selling at P/E multiples of 10 to 15 times its competitors around the world that sell the same product

 

[alarmguy]

A company with high margin shows strong cash from operations, which allows for growth or other opportunities.

Even if so, it’s margins are shrinking by large numbers now and investors invested in this company based on those numbers which were 80 times earnings.

Now, with losing money in the solar industry and shrinking margins in the automotive industry, investors have to go on a hope and prayer that they will choose other profitable opportunities. That doesn’t sound rational in the world where there are hundreds of companies with a solid and unique product.