PQIA Toyota 0w20 results are something!!

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Here's Gohkan's excellent thread on TGMO back in the day.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3356846/Toyota_TGMO_0W-20_SN_VOA_with_

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Consider this the official VOA of TGMO 0W-20 SN.

I just got the VOA results for the latest batch of Toyota TGMO 0W-20 SN/GF-5. The results are stunning for this top-ranked oil.

Viscosity index (VI) is a whopping 236, even shadowing JX Nippon Oil Eneos Sustina 0W-20 SN (VI 229) that boasts about its VI as its main selling point. This is showing that it's made of ExxonMobil's Visom Group III+ base stocks and very high-quality viscosity-index improver (VII).

KV @ 100 C is a very high, 5W-30-ish 8.79 cSt, very close to the 5W-30/10W-30 range (9.3 cSt or higher). Therefore, with its high viscosity, it's suitable for xW-30 applications.

Oil shear is only 1.3% according to my UOA. Therefore, it's an extremely shear-stable oil, showing that it's made of the highest quality viscosity-index improver (VII).

Additive package is extremely strong. ZDDP at 773 ppm P is near the 800 ppm maximum P limit. ExxonMobil/Shell (Infineum) trinuclear moly is at a very large 116 ppm.

There is a large dose (2431 ppm) of calcium detergent. There is no potentially harmful magnesium detergent (only 12 ppm).

TAN is very low at 1.08, showing that the concentration of potentially harmful succinimide dispersants is low.

Low TAN and low Mg contrasts with many of the newer oils like Mobil 1 SN, which have high Mg and high TAN that are potentially harmful to the engine.

TBN retention and TAN arrest is excellent according to my UOA. TBN decreased only to 5.25 from 6.20 and TAN increased only to 3.33 from 1.08 in 5170 miles. However, the low-sulfur gasoline in California helps keep TBN high and TAN low as well.

The sample was taken from one of the latest batches of TGMO 0W-20 SN. I chose the bottles with the latest date-code stamp on the Toyota-dealer shelf. I shook the bottle very well before I poured the sample so that the additives would be fully mixed.

This is the summary:

Fe 0.8
Ni 0.6
Cr 0.1
Ti 0.2
Cu 0.1
Al 1.5
Sn 0.0
Pb 0.2

Si 11
K 0.0

B 0.2
Ba 0.0
Ca 2431
Mg 12
Mo 116
Na 0.8
P 773
S 3543
Zn 866

KV40 36.16
KV100 8.79
VI 236
TAN 1.08
TBN 6.20

This is a truly exceptional oil that has no match to its top ranks.



As I recall, it wasn't THAT excellent a thread! Brother Gohkan's belief in TGMO was quasi-religious in its nature and he had a pronounced tendency to fill in any blanks in his arguments by simply making stuff up. I'm 100% sure HE believed what he was saying, but I certainly didn't.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Toyota suspend a bottle of oil about sump height, then specifically build the car around it...


That's the stuff !!!

Laugh!!

 

[bbhero]

Ahhh.....

I just thought this was different. By a wide margin compared to most oils I see here in the US. The statement "are something" is alluding to the very high molybdenum, +10 TBN for a gasoline motor oil that's not a 0w40 etc, viscosity index of over 220+ which I gave yet to see one above 180 for any 5w30, 0w30 or 0w20 here in the US and and very low CCS. Again, neither of these are noted in any other typical voa I have seen around here.


I pay attention to a number of things. This was definitely different from any normal baseline product I have seen around. I just found this a very interesting "case study" shall we say. Being that it this oil is so different than what is normal around here.

I didn't say this was the bestestest oil in the whole universe. Or that I going to go out abd buy 4 cases of it. I'm not.

I guess I am taking some of your response in a negative way. And that I am not all too impressed with. I may well be wrong here.

 

[Shannow]

bbhero, yes, it's different, and wildly so...and wildly so from the TGMO that was the perfect brew a few years ago.

The Japanese OEMs petitioned to have the deposits tests waivered for 0W20, and 0W20 alone because of how they wanted to build their oils to provide warmup fuel economy, and maintain "acceptable" wear rates...i.e. reducing hydrodynamic drag , at the expense of MOFT (think lift/drag on a plane), and relying on additives.

But also wanted a hall pass on the resultant piston deposits.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
...That Noack is going to do you no favours over the long term regarding ring stick and the impact of that high level of Moly on seals would give me cause for concern...

How about moly coating the CAT with that NOAK spec?

Many papers have discussed CAT phosphorus poisoning and zinc deposition on the exotic metals inside the CAT but not much talk about moly deposition and it's consequences.

 

[bbhero]

Well... Like I said.... It is different. Say vs any other "normal" made 5w30,5w20 and 0w20 here. How many other oils here in the US have a viscosity over 200?? Zero. And I could go in and on and on with the significant differences.Realize what I am actually saying.. The baseline difference from this stuff vs other products here is quite noticeable. Nothing more.

Didn't say this is the bestest... I ain't buying 3 cases of it.

229 viscosity index way more than the typical 160 seen here.

10+ TBN greater than the 8.2 or so typically seen with oils here.

And yeah of course the additive difference.


I just noted those big differences. That's all.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Well... Like I said.... It is different. Say vs any other "normal" made 5w30,5w20 and 0w20 here. How many other oils here in the US have a viscosity over 200?? Zero. And I could go in and on and on with the significant differences.Realize what I am actually saying.. The baseline difference from this stuff vs other products here is quite noticeable. Nothing more.

Didn't say this is the bestest... I ain't buying 3 cases of it.

229 viscosity index way more than the typical 160 seen here.

10+ TBN greater than the 8.2 or so typically seen with oils here.

And yeah of course the additive difference.


I just noted those big differences. That's all.



And 13% NOACK. So it's pretty bloody volatile too.

Then you compare it to one of XOM's flagship products like M1 EP 0w-20, which has a lower VI @ 173. Other than shooting for Japanese fuel economy standards, how does an oil that's going to be more base oil and less VII end up being inferior?

In fact, if we look at M1 AFE 0w-20:

-174 VI
- TBN of 9.53
- CCS Visc of 4,182cP
- NOACK of 10.7%

So it would seem that what you are giving up with the lower VI, or rather gaining, is lower volatility

I just can't get my mind around the almost fanatical attention this Group III-based oil receives. It seems no matter how significantly the product changes, the cult just continues to worship at its altar, fully embracing whatever those changes are, regardless of whether they completely contradict the scripture previously proclaimed for its predecessor.

 

[bbhero]

You and others here are extremely intelligent, have great insights, and possess very, very strong critical thinking abilities.

For another time.... And read this for what I am saying... It is a simple concept.
This was and is just a simple observation about the difference between this product and about 95 plus percent of other products on the market. Nothing more than that is implied or meant by this. It's not ANYTHING more than that. Period. End of story.

And again.... I am telling anyone to go run this?? Or go out and purchase 10 cases of it?? NO. I AM NOT.

And again... Have I said this is the best oil, idea, product or change since the first bread knife?? Again... NO. Absolutely NOT.

This should be rather clear to any motherblanking individual reading this.

We are not building the space shuttle here. This is not rocket science. What I have put in here is just an observation of those results. Nothing more. That's all.


Having said the OBVIOUS... To any casual observer...

I will gladly continue to run the oil I have from Federated Auto. It is more than good enough for my cars.


For the record.... If I went a 0w20 or had to run a 0w20.. Mobil 1 EP would be a #1 choice for me. No doubt in that.

 

[fdcg27]

SOJ, you do know that Shannow was writing with tongue firmly in cheek?
After all, you are both essentially Brits with a dry wit.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bbhero


You and others here are extremely intelligent, have great insights, and possess very, very strong critical thinking abilities.

For another time.... And read this for what I am saying... It is a simple concept.
This was and is just a simple observation about the difference between this product and about 95 plus percent of other products on the market. Nothing more than that is implied or meant by this. It's not ANYTHING more than that. Period. End of story.

And again.... I am telling anyone to go run this?? Or go out and purchase 10 cases of it?? NO. I AM NOT.

And again... Have I said this is the best oil, idea, product or change since the first bread knife?? Again... NO. Absolutely NOT.

This should be rather clear to any motherblanking individual reading this.

We are not building the space shuttle here. This is not rocket science. What I have put in here is just an observation of those results. Nothing more. That's all.


Having said the OBVIOUS... To any casual observer...

I will gladly continue to run the oil I have from Federated Auto. It is more than good enough for my cars.


For the record.... If I went a 0w20 or had to run a 0w20.. Mobil 1 EP would be a #1 choice for me. No doubt in that.


I probably should have been more pointed with my remarks, I was speaking more with respect to the historic proclamations made about this oil by CATERHAM in days of yore, and more recently, and with true fanaticism, Gokhan, who expounded on its virtues to no end, something Shannow covered quite well.

It wasn't meant to be demeaning to you at all. I saw remarks (some of them yours) regarding it being unique and I caught a whiff of the dust blowing off the old scripture and immediately it was "here we go again..."

 

[bbhero]

Yeah I've read the EPIC threads about this as well...

And yes it was way over stated.. how this 0w20 would cure birth defects, stop aging process, cure the clap etc etc..


I am not on that train of thinking. No where near it.

Just saying this was definitely different in some ways. And impressive in a couple aspects.

In saying those things I do not mean to say this product will guarantee your car will run to 700k miles with no problems. Or that this oil would help with erectile dysfunction. Or that this product is "way" better than Mobil 1, Castrol, Valvoline, Pennzoil, Havoline, Havoline, WPP, Supertech.

Again, I am very happy to run my Warren Distribution made Federated Auto full synthetic oil. Dexos Gen 2 approved with all the other baseline specs as well. At $3.49 a qt and I get to go to a regular parts place and not have to walk all across bfe.... Is a win in my book.

The latest generation of my car does spec 0w20... Strange in a way to me. The latest VQ motor has more horsepower and torque than mine. But if I had one I'd run Mobil 1 EP with it's 2.7 HTHS, low volatility, and decent percentage of group 4.

 

[OVERKILL]

 

[bbhero]

You are one of the smartest, insightful, and knowledgeable guys on here OVERKILL.

I respect your thinking and analysis a whole lot. It is people like yourself that are the reason why I enjoy being on here. In fact... You actually see the world in a similar way as I do.

I hope you have had a good day today.

 

[OVERKILL]

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
How many other oils here in the US have a viscosity over 200?? Zero. And I could go in and on and on with the significant differences.Realize what I am actually saying.. The baseline difference from this stuff vs other products here is quite noticeable. Nothing more.

Didn't say this is the bestest... I ain't buying 3 cases of it.

229 viscosity index way more than the typical 160 seen here.

10+ TBN greater than the 8.2 or so typically seen with oils here.


Define "oils here in the U.S."

IF you refer to readily available (you still have to get to a Toyota dealer, or order online), 'on a shelf' somewhere brick and mortar, and do not have to 'jump through hoops' to get, or 'built'/made HERE, and costs less than $12.00/qt., then YES, absolutely.

But CATERHAM's fave, 0W-20 ENEOS SUSTINA also has a 229 VI, and a 12.xx starting TBN.
I'm not sure which anti-wear, anti-friction add pack it contains, nor the amounts, but if I remember correctly, the NOACK was fairly low for a low(er) viscosity oil.

OF COURSE, it costs upwards of $14.00/qt. depending on how, from where, and when you buy it, and it is harder to find ANYWHERE than a zebra striped unicorn with hen's teeth!

But I have bought it in the past (so it WAS available somewhere/sometime), and still have 2 quarts left over from previous uses.

 

[PimTac]

So much time has passed since those discussions. I’m sure the oils mentioned have all gone through formulation changes. Mazda Moly, Sustina, etc. we know the TGMO has.

 

[Mitrokhin]

99% this oil is GTL-based like its Japanese copy http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/31986...ka-new-svezhee/

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Mitrokhin
99% this oil is GTL-based like its Japanese copy http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/31986...ka-new-svezhee/


That's a pretty high level of confidence.

As per the MSDS for this oil from ExxonMobil (who manufactures it for the North American market):



Which shows 80-90% heavy paraffinic distillate.

According to this thread: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4686761/4

from user 1JZ_E46, the CAS # for GTL is 848301-69-9, which we do not see present in the above snippet and is confirmed via this document from Shell:

https://www.shell.com/business-customers...l-base-oils.pdf

The CAS # above for the base used in TGMO is a Group III product, probably XOM's VISOM.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
After reading SonofJoe's comments I see no real advantages.

We all have opinions, don’t we? I have real world experience in two vehicles where I’ve observed TGMOs performance over the maximum recommended interval. You can dismiss my experience if you like, it is after all, the internet. I just thought people interested in this subject would be interested in real world experience rather than just opinions. I guess that doesn’t fit your MO.


Indydriver, I think demarpaint was pretty much saying... sure there may be some impressive numbers in this VOA... but it doesn't necessarily translate into any magical results. VOAs are in no way indicative of what a UOA will show the oil has delivered over an OCI. In the interest of information, what, per se, are your "advantages" by running TGMO over any other big-brand 0W20? Have your particle counts dropped? Has your UOA shown you can go significantly farther than when running another 0W20? I'm not discounting your real world experience... but that is definitely different than saying there are "advantages" of a specific oil in general without objective data to support it. Is it a good oil? Most likely. Is it "special" for the average user? Not very likely. Peace!

 

[ltslimjim]

Came here looking for a post on it since I was catching up on PQI's testing this year.

From results and price point, I still really prefer 0w20 M1 AFE. Just a nice balance of what I want in an oil, but for homebrew blending; and not knowing TGMO's price point, it is still fun the potential blends with oils balanced this way.

Is there another low NOACK, relatively high TBN and respectable VI 20 grade oil out there to rival M1's AFE? I'd soon as consider Pennzoil Ultra Platinum if it existed at WM locally but alas...