PQIA Toyota 0w20 results are something!!

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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
After reading SonofJoe's comments I see no real advantages.
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We all have opinions, don’t we? I have real world experience in two vehicles where I’ve observed TGMOs performance over the maximum recommended interval. You can dismiss my experience if you like, it is after all, the internet. I just thought people interested in this subject would be interested in real world experience rather than just opinions. I guess that doesn’t fit your MO.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Hi SOJ,

Would I be correct in thinking that this oil must have an unusually high VII treat rate and this is also typical of Japanese PCMOs?



Whenever I've looked in detail at TGMO, I've always come to the conclusion that it's formulated with Poly-Methacrylate (PMA) VII rather than common or garden Olefin Copolymer (OCP) VII. Whilst PMA does have a small advantage in terms of fuel economy (all things being equal,for a given KV100 you will always get a lower KV40 with PMA, hence the high VI). Personally I don't like PMAs on the grounds that they are hopelessly inefficient for a given KV100/CCS viscometric balance. This TGMO might contain 250% more solid VII rubber than a more typical OCP oil. This makes the oil unnecessarily expensive and too much rubber's usually not great for deposit formation.

Oh, and over here TGMO 0W20 costs £50 ($US 70) for 5 litres (5.3 US quarts)...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Genuine-Litre-Toyota-Hybrid-Synthetic/dp/B00KMR11FO
 
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: PimTac
The Mazda Moly oil by Idemitsu has well over 800 ppm.


I wish they made a 5w or 0w30 Mazda moly oil.



To Japanese eyes, that would seem most illogical. To them, the single most important goal is fuel efficiency and going 5W or 30 weight would be a backward step.

Having said that, to me, the Japanese style of formulating oils is fundamentally flawed because the cost of the oil itself is treated almost as an irrelevance. They can get away with this in Japan itself as oil there costs a small fortune (much like the price of rice or melons, etc). Western consumers would never tolerate this.
 
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This is pretty much what I was thinking based upon some of your past posts in other threads.
There has to be a reason that none of Mobil's branded oils are formulated like TGMO and it can't be that XOM's folks are too simple to figure it out without guidance from Toyota. The high VI sounds good, but how it's achieved is another matter.
You've also written in other threads that everything moly has to offer can be had at relatively low treat rates, so there may be no real advantage in the massive moly content of TGMO while there may be some disadvantages.
Also, there are earlier but still recent formulations of TGMO with moly treat rates a fraction of what this oil has, so you have to wonder what Toyota was thinking then versus what they're thinking now.
 
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Will an engine last longer with this oil compared to any off the shelf oil bought at any retail store ?


In my 'umble opinion...no!

There was once upon a time when wear killed engines (poor metallurgy, lack of friction reducing coatings, bad cams, etc). I'm no engine designer but my gut feel is that those times are now behind us. If you look at wear metals in used oils nowerdays, they tends to be extremely low and the rate of wear typically drops off as the engine gets older.

Excessive timing chain stretch can catastrophically wreck your engine but from what I can gather, the consensus from professional oil formulators is that TC problems have bugger all to do with oil quality and everything to do with chain manufacturing quality or lack of it (mentioning no names...cough!...Volkswagen!).

If I was asked to pick one single thing that ultimately messes up modern engines, and is specifically related to oil quality, it's probably excessive oil consumption, caused by gunked up oil control rings. You might be unlucky, and find this hits you at 50k or you might be lucky and get to 150k but in the right circumstances, it will get you. If you buy in to this theory (and not everyone does) then you should not be looking at an oil's VI or it's Moly content or whether it's conventional or synthetic but what the oil's Noack is. Over the long term, the lower it is, the better. Realistically you should aim for 10% or less.
 
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Not to put words in SonOfJoe’s mouth but it was he who explained to me a while back about the law of diminishing returns. The idea that 100ppm of Moly is good so 200 must be better and 500 is great , at some point it’s not making anymore sense to increase it.

From what I gather in this thread, cleaning ability is essential , especially for modern engines.
 
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Why mixing...when he can buy HDEO 10w30 with greater zddp levels & same TBN...ok he will miss only Moly then...

Yep, because the mix will have more ZDDP than the PCMO and more Moly than the HDEO.

But in reality, any standard issue oil will do me fine, and mixing isn't worth the time or trouble. Just chatting ...
 
Honda’s experts think so much of Moly that they found a way to impregnate their piston skirts so that there would be a continuous source of Moly dissolving into the FF then training dealers and customers not to drain it before 10% OLM which is 6500 miles on our Accord. This helped solved the problems with the awful VCM scheme. [Notice there is no V6 and hence no VCM in this year’s Accord lineup] .
 
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Originally Posted By: bbhero
...

Has far as the NOACK being at 12%... I don't think oil that is changed within good reason would present with a problem related to 12 percent NOACK....
As long as you're rounding to the nearest 1%, 12.9% rounds to 13%---right on the Dexos upper limit, incidentally.
 
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
After reading SonofJoe's comments I see no real advantages.
21.gif



We all have opinions, don’t we? I have real world experience in two vehicles where I’ve observed TGMOs performance over the maximum recommended interval. You can dismiss my experience if you like, it is after all, the internet. I just thought people interested in this subject would be interested in real world experience rather than just opinions. I guess that doesn’t fit your MO.


Yes we all do have opinions. I was stating mine, and how I based it from the comments of someone from the industry. I didn't attack you, or your results, nor did I quote you. I also like to hear about people's success stories, and learn from their mistakes. I was interested in your success as well, I noted it. I also like to read the opinion of industry experts on topics of interest, after all this is the internet.
wink.gif
 
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Well, Honda also used a moly treatment on the piston skirts of the later K24s which I think was intended to reduce scuffing wear to the bores during break-in since some K24s suffered high oil consumption related to bore wear at fairly modest mileages.
Along with that, Honda recommended that the FF oil be left in for a full normal interval to further reduce excess wear during break-in, since the FF was rich in moly, whether from the add pack or the assembly lube doesn't matter.
I'm not sure how much good any of this does the V-6 in reducing the problems caused by Honda's quick and dirty VCM implementation, which was and remains fundamentally flawed.
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
That Noack is going to do you no favours over the long term regarding ring stick and the impact of that high level of Moly on seals would give me cause for concern.


Joe can you elaborate that moly (MoS2?) VS seals thing please? Tnx
 
I think the high moly is more for LSPI abatement than wear. Mazda Moly came out with the Skyactiv engines and now Toyota is going high Compression also and their new formula has a boatload of moly. When I read a Japanese engineer mention that moly helps prevent LSPI, the high moly oils made great sense. I mean, no doubt it'll help with all the boundary lube this oil is going to see but I think that's what the big boron is there to help with, also. Such huge levels of moly just seems to line up with LSPI control.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Well, Honda also used a moly treatment on the piston skirts of the later K24s which I think was intended to reduce scuffing wear to the bores during break-in since some K24s suffered high oil consumption related to bore wear at fairly modest mileages.
Along with that, Honda recommended that the FF oil be left in for a full normal interval to further reduce excess wear during break-in, since the FF was rich in moly, whether from the add pack or the assembly lube doesn't matter.
I'm not sure how much good any of this does the V-6 in reducing the problems caused by Honda's quick and dirty VCM implementation, which was and remains fundamentally flawed.


On my mom's new Honda, I left the FF in for 6K miles before changing.
 
Me again!

Okay, Moly on piston skirts & Moly in oil are sort of two different things.

Using inorganic, solid Molybdenum Disulphide based coatings on piston skirts is to exploit its properties as a planer-shearing, solid state lubricant. It's the same deal inside your vacuum cleaner which typically uses cheap graphite as a solid state lubricant. It's single function is to help reduce sliding friction between the skirt & the bore (however it should be said that the bulk of this source of friction is managed by the liquid oil film!) I didn't read he Honda blurb I found on this in detail but they seem to be 'firing' MoS2 molecules into the skirt surfaces to deeply embed them. I can sort of understand this because ideally you DON'T want solid MoS2 getting into your liquid engine oil.

Now the Moly you find in TGMO is absolutely NOT Molybdenum Disulphide. It will be in the form of an organic liquid with long alkyl chains attached to keep the Moly in solution. There are many different ways you can make Moly oil soluble but one way, pioneered by the Japanese company Asahi Denka, is to go down the Moly Di-alkyl Di-thio Carbamate route.

This class of additives, albeit very expensive, are very clever as they simulateously reduce wear, reduce friction & improve basic oxidation resistance at relatively low treat rates. The Achilles Heel of this class of additives comes from the 'AM' in 'carbAMate'. It tells you that there's some active nitrogen subsumed in the Moly bearing molecule and that can spell trouble for fluorolastomer seals like Viton which harden an crack over time.

As regards whether 800 - 1000 ppm Moly in oil is the right amount of too much, as with so many things, it depends on your point of view. Ask the average driver and she will tell you that a 4" 'driveshaft' will get the job done, 90% of the time. However a more adventurous driver, one who likes squeezing through tight gaps in rough, muddy terrain might insist an 8" driveshaft is required as minimum. Personally I find a 6" shaft a good compromise.
 
Here's Gohkan's excellent thread on TGMO back in the day.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3356846/Toyota_TGMO_0W-20_SN_VOA_with_

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Consider this the official VOA of TGMO 0W-20 SN.

I just got the VOA results for the latest batch of Toyota TGMO 0W-20 SN/GF-5. The results are stunning for this top-ranked oil.

Viscosity index (VI) is a whopping 236, even shadowing JX Nippon Oil Eneos Sustina 0W-20 SN (VI 229) that boasts about its VI as its main selling point. This is showing that it's made of ExxonMobil's Visom Group III+ base stocks and very high-quality viscosity-index improver (VII).

KV @ 100 C is a very high, 5W-30-ish 8.79 cSt, very close to the 5W-30/10W-30 range (9.3 cSt or higher). Therefore, with its high viscosity, it's suitable for xW-30 applications.

Oil shear is only 1.3% according to my UOA. Therefore, it's an extremely shear-stable oil, showing that it's made of the highest quality viscosity-index improver (VII).

Additive package is extremely strong. ZDDP at 773 ppm P is near the 800 ppm maximum P limit. ExxonMobil/Shell (Infineum) trinuclear moly is at a very large 116 ppm.

There is a large dose (2431 ppm) of calcium detergent. There is no potentially harmful magnesium detergent (only 12 ppm).

TAN is very low at 1.08, showing that the concentration of potentially harmful succinimide dispersants is low.

Low TAN and low Mg contrasts with many of the newer oils like Mobil 1 SN, which have high Mg and high TAN that are potentially harmful to the engine.

TBN retention and TAN arrest is excellent according to my UOA. TBN decreased only to 5.25 from 6.20 and TAN increased only to 3.33 from 1.08 in 5170 miles. However, the low-sulfur gasoline in California helps keep TBN high and TAN low as well.

The sample was taken from one of the latest batches of TGMO 0W-20 SN. I chose the bottles with the latest date-code stamp on the Toyota-dealer shelf. I shook the bottle very well before I poured the sample so that the additives would be fully mixed.

This is the summary:

Fe 0.8
Ni 0.6
Cr 0.1
Ti 0.2
Cu 0.1
Al 1.5
Sn 0.0
Pb 0.2

Si 11
K 0.0

B 0.2
Ba 0.0
Ca 2431
Mg 12
Mo 116
Na 0.8
P 773
S 3543
Zn 866

KV40 36.16
KV100 8.79
VI 236
TAN 1.08
TBN 6.20

wc_2014_04_29_1.jpg

wc_2014_04_29_2.jpg


This is a truly exceptional oil that has no match to its top ranks.
 
Given that this oil is supposed to be the oil that Toyota suspend a bottle of oil about sump height, then specifically build the car around it...or is this now the 7th generation of TGMO that was specifically made for every single Toyota engine variante out there...? I'm losing track.

In the last version of TGMO, the low moly was supposed to indicate that they were using the superior tri-nuclear moly as per Mobil patent, and the uber high VI was supposed to indicate that they were using the Asteric PMA Viscosity Modifier.

It, the last one was also made to blend with M1 0W40, so not sure about this one. Wonder how it would go with a decent SAE30 as a bedmate.

Thanks BBhero and wemay for posting on the ongoing mistique about TGMO.
 
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