Post bailout, who came out on top?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: itguy08

Look at this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chrysler_engines

There are more non Chrysler engines than Chrysler engines on that list.

Contrast this to these lists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_engines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_engines

Notice there are no Non-Ford and Non-GM engines....



I love a good discussion!

Remember AMC used Chrysler steering columns in the 70s. Rolls Royce had GM hydromatic trannies. XJ cherokees started off with 2.5L "Iron Duke" Pontiac engines.

I think there's a mitsubishi out there with a dodge neon motor in it.
lol.gif


32.gif
Sales numbers of 300k aren't spectacular as the market isn't as segmented as it is now. It's like how they'll never top ratings for the final episode of MASH because there are so many more than three TV channels now. The real question is what cars from the 2002-2012 era are such junk that we'll look back on them with sneers a generation from now?
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino

I love a good discussion!

Remember AMC used Chrysler steering columns in the 70s. Rolls Royce had GM hydromatic trannies. XJ cherokees started off with 2.5L "Iron Duke" Pontiac engines.

I think there's a mitsubishi out there with a dodge neon motor in it.
lol.gif

....

thumbsup2.gif
Nobody's name calling other posters....just name calling the cars.
lol.gif


The 2nd gen Mitsubishi Eclipse RS and GS had a Neon motor.

The Lincoln Mark VII and Continental could be purchased with a BMW diesel.
 
Since we're going back into ancient historry here, Toyota totally copied the old Chevy stovebolt inline 6 cyl to the point parts could interchange between the Toyota and Chevy.
 
So mediocre brand X is perceived better then mediocre brand Y...big deal. If you want to really see what's up, compare a domestic brand against the leader.

You guys are all using the wrong metrics. Here's a better one: How are the domestics doing in comparision to Toyota? As far as sales, quality, value, and used car pricing, none of the domestics comes close to what Toyota has achieved.

Until the domestics offer toe-to-toe models that really compete against Toyota's line up, from the cheap entry level Yaris, through the Hybrids and all the way up the line, the domestics should be perceived as mediocre me-too brands that the smart set avoids like the plague.

Thank you for your tolerance to an alternative view :)
 
Originally Posted By: lovcom
So mediocre brand X is perceived better then mediocre brand Y...big deal. If you want to really see what's up, compare a domestic brand against the leader.

You guys are all using the wrong metrics. Here's a better one: How are the domestics doing in comparision to Toyota? As far as sales, quality, value, and used car pricing, none of the domestics comes close to what Toyota has achieved.

Until the domestics offer toe-to-toe models that really compete against Toyota's line up, from the cheap entry level Yaris, through the Hybrids and all the way up the line, the domestics should be perceived as mediocre me-too brands that the smart set avoids like the plague.

Thank you for your tolerance to an alternative view :)



Other than the Prius, Tacoma and maybe the new Avalon, there is nothing in the Toyota lineup that is remotely competitive and certainly no where near class leading. The current Toyota showroom is a sea of mediocrity.

Point, and counter point.
 
Originally Posted By: spk2000
I like to see everyone in the market. Competition brings out the best in everyone or they die. Sort of like Yugo did. GM cut some of its lines as well. Saturn, Pontiac, Olds are all gone. I did like and owned several of their vehicles so it is sad to see them go but if the market cannot sustain them then bring something else in better.


This would have been incredibly effective if we had just left everything alone. But if everyone is considered too big to fail then the market cannot cleanse itself of the deadbeats!
 
Originally Posted By: lovcom
...
Until the domestics offer toe-to-toe models that really compete against Toyota's line up, from the cheap entry level Yaris, through the Hybrids and all the way up the line, the domestics should be perceived as mediocre me-too brands that the smart set avoids like the plague.


I do not understand Toyota's sales figures.

The current Malibu is at least as good as the current Camry 4cyl. The Cruze markedly better than the Corolla. The Sonic should rank as well as a Yaris. The Silverado half-ton is arguably better than the Tundra on several points and there is no Tundra HD so Silverado HD wins by default.

In a driver comparison, the Passat and Mazda6 will always beat the Camry. Always.

Ford's hybrids do well....okay, they had to license some of that technology from Toyota so we'll call it a draw

Is the LFA better than the Corvette ZR1 or Viper?
21.gif
Is it 4.5X better as the price would indicate? [CENSORED!!!!] NO!

In reliability?
21.gif
I don't know that Toyota is that good. I often joke that GM vehicles will run longer with something broken than most cars will run. They earned that reputation
 
Toyota is nothing like they used to be. We had them in the early 70's and they were just about unbreakable.

They simply do not make that good of a car anymore. They've certainly had their share of recalls and serious problems as well. Not to mention TERRIBLE driving dynamics from the overwhelming majority of their cars.

Hardly qualified for sainthood despite their fanboys.
 
Originally Posted By: lovcom
So mediocre brand X is perceived better then mediocre brand Y...big deal. If you want to really see what's up, compare a domestic brand against the leader.

You guys are all using the wrong metrics. Here's a better one: How are the domestics doing in comparision to Toyota? As far as sales, quality, value, and used car pricing, none of the domestics comes close to what Toyota has achieved.

Until the domestics offer toe-to-toe models that really compete against Toyota's line up, from the cheap entry level Yaris, through the Hybrids and all the way up the line, the domestics should be perceived as mediocre me-too brands that the smart set avoids like the plague.

Thank you for your tolerance to an alternative view :)




Are you in the "smart set"?
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Toyota is nothing like they used to be. We had them in the early 70's and they were just about unbreakable.

They simply do not make that good of a car anymore. They've certainly had their share of recalls and serious problems as well. Not to mention TERRIBLE driving dynamics from the overwhelming majority of their cars.

Hardly qualified for sainthood despite their fanboys.


You pretty much nailed it. They were revolutionary back in the day but bloated and content now. IMO the quality slip happened when they stopped making Japanese-market-segment size cars in the early 1990s. When they went bigger and fatter than the homeland tax structure dictated they lost their engineering challenge/motivation/ whatever you want to call it. Since they didn't have to make the most of every inch, every pound, every horsepower, they got lazy.

On the flipside the Prius powertrain is well ahead of everyone else. Too bad 50MPG has been their-- yawn-- rating for a decade now. Even this platform may be coasting on its original (former?) success.
 
Toyotas didn't break when they had nothing on them to break lol. They might've been marginally more reliable in the past, but not over the past several years.

I remember early 70's GM cars being almost unbreakable. I was sitting in my friends at the time 17 year old all original except the paint '73 Impala tank in traffic when a full sized Dodge van rear-ended us hard and pushed us into the heavy duty bumper on a 4X4 pick up. There wasn't even a scatch on the Impalas huge steel bumper. It was more like an armor plated rear end. It kind of hurt though. I've seem those rear bumpers smashed in but I don't know what kind of impact it would take.

Anyway those early 70's GM cars would run forever too if you maintained them and the occasional repair.
 
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Now you are just being flat out ridiculous! The Tempo( and it's Mercury cousin the Topaz )was a piece of dung! I worked at a Ford dealer and they were always breaking down. No power, horrible ride, cheap interior, and on and on. Total JUNK!


Compared to what, an Aries K, Reliant or LeBaron? Or a Shadow or Spirit? Those were worse cars than the Tempo. Look at the sales #'s. To put it in perspective:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Tempo


Just because it sells doesn't mean it's good, honestly.
I had a LeBaron back in the day, an 88 model. That car came up recently with my dad, we both miss it like crazy, it was a great car, and infinitely better than the equivalent Tempo. You are that guy, the guy who bags on this stuff for no good reason. That was a great car and I wish I still had it. Never had any problems with it, and it handled and drove wonderfully.
 
Having come from a family that had two Omnis and two Tempos...Give me the Omni any day. The Tempo was always broke.

Plus I owned 7 different 2.2/2.5 turbo cars, they had there problems, but they took a beating and I loved all of them.
 
Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Now you are just being flat out ridiculous! The Tempo( and it's Mercury cousin the Topaz )was a piece of dung! I worked at a Ford dealer and they were always breaking down. No power, horrible ride, cheap interior, and on and on. Total JUNK!


Compared to what, an Aries K, Reliant or LeBaron? Or a Shadow or Spirit? Those were worse cars than the Tempo. Look at the sales #'s. To put it in perspective:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Tempo


Just because it sells doesn't mean it's good, honestly.
I had a LeBaron back in the day, an 88 model. That car came up recently with my dad, we both miss it like crazy, it was a great car, and infinitely better than the equivalent Tempo. You are that guy, the guy who bags on this stuff for no good reason. That was a great car and I wish I still had it. Never had any problems with it, and it handled and drove wonderfully.


I had an 86 Town and Country wagon. Dependable as an anvil and the few times that it did break, parts were inexpensive. Certainly not the pinnacle of automotive engineering, but was solid transportation. I paid $250 for the car and put over 100K on it. Best $250 I ever spent.
 
Exactly, what is the point of arguing whether Tempo was a bigger POS than Reliant? Is it relevant now? Was it relevant in 2008?
 
Neither. I'm not even counting the embarrassing fact that they were bailed out.

-GM still has two identical truck/SUV brands
-They discontinued Pontiac but kept Buick (I've counted 5 new Buicks I've seen around here in the last year)

-Chrysler is focusing too much on using legendary names such as Dart and Cherokee. Both don't even resemble the old version, and the Jeep brand is now a joke. Ford could name their new Focus the Model T but I doubt that would increase sales.


I will say that the Chevy Cruze might help GM, and the Pentastar engine (if quality control issues are fixed) might help Chrysler.

I'm not sure a new diesel in the Ram 1500 would be a big seller. With the new emissions standards, diesel pickups are becoming increasingly expensive to own and run. Not to mention the higher initial purchase price. Most buyers of entry level diesel pickups such as landscapers, contractors, etc, are now finding gas pickups to be cheaper to run.
 
I thinks it's a draw. Remember Chrysler was getting to close being finished, shoot they really didn't have much to offer. Now they have a lot of nice new models and have come a long way in quality. GM is also doing well also. Each one really had different obstacles to overcome and heck, saved a lot of jobs. So who cares if the government loaned them money, it's comes down to the fact that the country would be a lot worse off without either one. We would see it first hand here in Fort Worth, TX if GM was gone. I have a lot of friends that work at the assembly plant in Arlington who would be out of work. Now they are working OT.

Heck I'm glad we put out money into those two companies and we can see the difference. They are doing better unlike the United States Postal Service that continues to loose millions and we continue to poor it in.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

john_pifer
I Got On a Flashlight Kick
2 3 4
Replies
67
Views
10K
zmelli
john_pifer
My Take on the New 2022 WRX
6 7 8
Replies
147
Views
14K
avacado11
wwillson
  • Locked
Pennzoil - Drain Intervals Q&A - Answers
Replies
4
Views
17K
Silver
wwillson
  • Locked
Answers - Pennzoil Technology behind "Made From Natural Gas" and Vehicle maintenance while driving less Q&A
Replies
5
Views
32K
RateNate
Jackson_Slugger
A short history of US fighter aircraft — from biplanes to stealth jet
Replies
19
Views
2K
Kira
Back
Top