Police State USA

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quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk:
.. Also, one miscreant's bad act would never legally justify entry into private citizens' homes,
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It couldn't or shouldn't, but it DID unfortunately.

quote:

and no, we don't have to like what we have to put up with at the airports and parks (which are different, by the way, being privately owned -- they can search every arse if they want, and you can walk away if you choose...).
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Yes I understand that. My main point was the ridiculousness of how insanely PC we have become by making babies get out of their strollers and having children walking through a metal detector one at a time. What is next? I understand they are private and they can require whatever they want to enter. Obviously I was not going to ruin the kids day by not going after we are already there. And if I was going to write a letter I should have done it by now. (was almost 2months ago).
quote:

So, what should we (our government) do? Should we just let the terrorists kill plane and building loads of innocent people any time they like so we can board planes quickly and without inconvenience?
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I don't know. But it's any awfully slippery slope and a scary one at that. More scary than terrorists if you ask me. And in some cases we have already gone too far.

[ August 11, 2004, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]
 
Jason,please give one example of your rights being violated.Please let us know how your rights have been hurt and or hindered since 9-11.
If you are obeying the law,you should have nothing to fear.
If we dont have the searches at airports etc.,how are we going to have any chance of stopping terrorism?

Have you been held by the authorities without a charge?
Have you had your home entered and searched?
Has anyone came to your place of employment and asked questions about you?
Have you been followed in your car?
Have you had your bank accounts etc. frozen?
Have you been detained because you went to a library?
I would say that the answer to all of these questions is,No.
Once again,if we dont have some restrictions,how can we stop another attack?
Please dont think that I am being smart,I am only making a few points.
 
They HAVE happened. It is real. The incident in OshKosh is posted here.
How about model rocketry enthusiasts? Their rights are being violated in my opinion. I'll try and find a link detailing situation.
 
I agree the freedoms we hold so dear are at risk, but how else do you suggest we fight this enemy that has sworn to destroy us? These same freedoms that we hold so dear also provide a means for these militants to evade detection and capture.
This world wide islamic group that has sworn to eradicate Americans from the face of the earth are serious.
 
quote:
Originally posted by XS650:
Every time I have to take my shoes off going through airport security, I'm thankful that the Shoe Bomber wasn't carrying the explosives up his arse.
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oh, i don't know. thinking of that fellow trying to light the fuse of a rectally stored explosive device seems pretty funny to me.

of course where i'm from, the gut bombs had no fuse, you simply bought a sack of them from white castle.
 
quote:
Originally posted by motorguy222:
Jason,please give one example of your rights being violated.Please let us know how your rights have been hurt and or hindered since 9-11.
If you are obeying the law,you should have nothing to fear.
If we dont have the searches at airports etc.,how are we going to have any chance of stopping terrorism?

Have you been held by the authorities without a charge?
Have you had your home entered and searched?
Has anyone came to your place of employment and asked questions about you?
Have you been followed in your car?
Have you had your bank accounts etc. frozen?
Have you been detained because you went to a library?
I would say that the answer to all of these questions is,No.
Once again,if we dont have some restrictions,how can we stop another attack?
Please dont think that I am being smart,I am only making a few points.
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Absolutely-I agree. But its another Slippery Slope-Chicken Little is sliding down it again
rolleyes.gif


Sure you can come up with an example of the Government doing the wrong thing once in 100 million times. Guilty folks don't get convicted, innocent people get convicted in court, these things happen. But gee-its not a perfect world.

And to answer your question - its never happened to me. Life is too short to worrry about the "slipery slope" or the falling of the sky.
 
Time to get a clue: terrorists don't have to blow up anything or kill anybody else if they can make us change our lives and become something we didn't used to be, they already win.
 
quote:
Originally posted by MarkC:
Time to get a clue: terrorists don't have to blow up anything or kill anybody else if they can make us change our lives and become something we didn't used to be, they already win.
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Well, by this view of "winning" and "losing" we all lose every day until we die. The key to surviving and making something of your life is to successfully adapt to the ever-changing conditions around you. We have tighter security at airports, but I still get my travel, and the associated work, done just fine. Have we made changes? Yes. Have the terrorist bastards won? Not in my book. In fact, I feel that the fact that we've done such a good job adapting is a demonstration of how we have changed successfully, but not lost. In my last airline trip two weeks ago, I made my way through all the TSA stuff in about the same time it always took, except they did make me sit down and scanned my shoes. No big deal.

So let me pose the question again, what would you do, just drop security altogether, in this world where there's an Al Quaida army out there looking to kill us all, and let them pick us off plane load at a time in the name of freedom???
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Troxell:

quote:
Originally posted by darryld13:

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
Well we don't have any pregnant mothers blowing themselves up! And if we did they wouldn't be caucasian. Or black, or mexican for that matter. Hard to beat that loophole....
rolleyes.gif

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Neither did Israel at one point...
rolleyes.gif

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So they have caucasians, mexicans or blacks blowing themselves up over there? That's news to me.
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They didn't have caucasians, mexicans, blacks, or pregnant mothers blowing themselves up over there at one point.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
And they still don't
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Yet they still stop pregnant women, even if showing signs of labor. The Israel theory is just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't or won't happen.

You really can't envision it happening here? Even after the loss of some of our soldiers, killed by a woman using that technique in Iraq? You don't think a woman could at least be made up to look pregnant and smuggle explosives in if terrorists thought that pregnant looking women with baby strollers get a pass? According to Time.com, the FBI issued an alert May 20, 2004 to 18,000 U.S. law enforcement agencies that "...also notes that suicide bombers may disguise themselves in stolen military, police or firefighter's garb, or even as pregnant women."

My point is I honestly believe that security must extend to all for it to be secure at all. There have been many very American looking people caught with explosives that your profiling proposal would have let through.

[ August 11, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: darryld13 ]
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
motorguy, that was an incredibly ignorant statement.
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JasonTroxell,What was so 'incredibly ignorant' about my comment?
We all have read toomnaywheels statements on this board,my statement is accurate based on his previous posts.
Liberals complain about the terror warnings,yet,take the warnings away and let something happen.The Liberals would make a huge fuss.
The Liberals are trying to blame Bush for the attacks even though Clinton was in office when they were hatched out.The Liberals are blaming Bush even though the Cole bombing happened under Clinton.If Clinton had been more worried about our nation than he was about getting a date,the 9-11 attacks may never have happened.
However,you don't hear this from the Liberals,the attacks are all Bush's fault.

If the Liberals are this adamant on blaming Bush now,let the terror warnings be done away with and then something happen.The Liberals would be hunting him down with clubs.
If you will notice,Toomanywheels never refuted nor did he deny what I said as being true.

Jason,one more thing,while there have not been any Non-Arab Muslims caught trying to harm the US,there have been Americans(Non-Arab)associated WITH Muslim terrorist groups.How long do you think it will be before an American leads a terrorist cell into a mission?
It may already be taking place.Considering the ever changing tactics of the terrorists,the next attack may just be led by and or made up of Americans.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
Well we don't have any pregnant mothers blowing themselves up! And if we did they wouldn't be caucasian. Or black, or mexican for that matter. Hard to beat that loophole....
rolleyes.gif

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No, but we do have a dedicated legion of terrorist fanatics who are willing to fly plane loads of innocent civilians, even 20 month olds, into buildings full of other innocent people.

With all due respect, the Doctor's essay is based, at least in part, upon a faulty premise. He says, "[f]reedom is not defined by safety. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference." In reality, freedom results when a number of different things come together. I submit that without safety, the "freedom" to get on an airplane or train, or to visit Congress, becomes largely meaningless. We don't travel or visit Congress just for the sake of doing so. We travel to get somewhere. We visit Congress (vs. for example, the Bahamas) to witness government in action. If you have a real fear of getting murdered doing so, you're really not free to do so, are you?

Our Constitution makes a valiant attempt to balance competing fundamentals. It contains no absolute prohibition against any searches. In only puts off limits "unreasonable search and seizure." And how long do you think any elected official would last if he effectively said, "hey, cut back and continue with business as usual, a 9/11 here and there is the price we have to pay for a quick run through airport security." What they do now at airports is a pain in the a$$, but in the context of the times, I reluctantly find it reasonable.

One last thing. Profiling may be effective to some degree, but reliance upon it (at least by itself) would be foolhardy at best. One of Al Quaida's recent high priority projects has been the recruitment of fair-skinned operatives, specifically so that they can move about more easily in target areas (i.e. here).
 
motorguy, your generalization was they issue. Mainly "you and others like you". I happen to mostly agree with him on this issue, so I guess I would be others like him. However I can guarantee you I would never be fine with JKerry or democrats in same situation. Maybe he would, but I don't know him to say so. I may criticize the administraion if there is another attack. But that is my right. And I would do so to any administration. But I can assure you my criticism certainly wouldn't be there should have been more molesting of grandmothers at the airports.
 
I think it's a case of not needing to change laws and procedures, just use what we have the way it's intended to be used.
I'm more concerned with the so-called Patriot Act.
The government has no business snooping into what books people read or buy, or what websites they look at.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
Ask the residents of Oshkosh if they've had their homes entered and searched.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=002915#000000
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Residents were asked if they agreed to the search. If not then a Warrant was required. And the warrant depended on whether there was "Probable Cause". Whats the problem??

And as far as the Rockets..it might be prudent to require some additional information about people who are building things that could bring down an airliner. Other things lots less sinester require licenses..Ham Radio Transmissions, Hunting, Fishing. Heck- to talk on a cb radio U used to need a license.

Just doesn't seem to be a big deal.
 
Well I didn't read anything about that, did you read another report?

For the rockets, it's more than acquiring a little info. They have to be subject to inspection of their home at any time without notice for one.

A model rocket cannot bring down a plane. It's impossible. It's path will never be the same. There is no way to guide them. And they wouldn't have enough power to carry a warhead.
 
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