Pinging sound even when it was new.

[RipRocK]

Greetings,

My 2003 Honda Pilot (3.5L V6 V-TEC, about 25,000miles now, have changed oil @3,000mile religiously and currently using Mobil1) makes this faint, but still noticeable pinging sound whenever the car's under moderately to hard load between 2K-3.5K RPM. I think above the 3.5K RPM, the engine roar drowns out the pinging noise.

Also, the pinging noise will develop into a louder crackling noise every so often at around the 3K RPM mark, especially when I keep the gas pedal down while the pinging noise is being produced. The noise is the same even though I've tried premium gas with higher octane and have tried different brands of gas.

I noticed this noise right from the start when I bought the car and have taken it to a couple of different dealers and had the technician go for a ride with me. But, even as I'm reproducing the pinging noise for them right there and then, they all said they heard nothing unusual.

But I know the sound is there. I drive this car just about everyday. Perhaps the technicians expected a loud pinging/knocking sound normally associated with older cars with serious carbon buildup problems when I said "pinging" sound.

I tried to write it off as a quirk in this particular Honda engine, but the noise substantially reduced after I had my timing belt auto-tensioner replaced as per a TSB issued by Honda. Supposedly, the dampening fluid in this part can leak and make an unusual sound. I was finally relieved, thinking that this was the culprit of the noise I've been suffering from. I spoke with the technician who performed the timing belt auto-tensioner replacement, but strangely enough, he said that he found no fluid had leaked and there was nothing wrong with it.

But, I'm thinking that the pinging noise I was experiencing was due to the faulty functioning of the replaced part because the pinging noise has alleviated since the replacement. But since I'm still experiencing it, even if in reduced level, (both the pinging noise and the occassional crackling noise), I'm led to believe that there's still some abnormality in the timing belt related components.

What would you guys try to do or say to the service advisor to convince him to have a technician take a closer look at that area which might be attributable to my pinging/crackling problem? I know the waterpump was inspected when the TSB was being performed and supposedly was fine.

I just wish to hear the muffled roar of the engine when I punch the gas. I still thik that this is very nice engine, but the experience of driving it has always been tarnished because of this pinging/crackling noise. Thanks for your time and courtesy.

[ January 19, 2004, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: RipRocK ]

 

[Robbie Alexander]

Does not sound right to me. You may have issues that I would document. Start sending Certified letters to everyone. Start keeping a record of everyone you speak with.

My truck has always since new had pinging on regular... It may be my leadfoot though! But most of it goes when I put plus, and a tad better with Super... But, although I am not a mechanic I would assume it is not a good thing to never have it go away. Pinging will kill your engine!

Since you know the problem exists. I would also consider trying a good fuel treatment like RedLine, and see how that helps your problem.

 

[theguru]

Are you sure it is actually pinging or a sound similar to it that is normal for this motor? A diagnosis of the ECU should give a readout of pinging from the knock sensor.

 

[S2000driver]

First of all, I've had 10 hondas, a few of which were 6 cylinders. Here are my observations:

(1) Pinging- Honda runs the on the hairy edge of compression ratio for low octane gas. Under certain loads there will be "normal" pinging, more prevalent when the air has less humidity in it. Try running a couple tanks of higher octane gasoline to see if it makes it go away, and/or change to a different gasoline. DO NOT put "no-name" gasoline in a Honda from your local quick-E-mart.

(2) Cold-Engine Valve Clatter- Honda typically uses mechanical valve adjusters on their valvetrains. When the engine is cold, there is clearance between the rocker arm and the top of the valve, because the valve is shorter when it is cold. Until the car is warmed up, there will be more noise because there is a firm tapping everytime the valve is opened. Especially below 40F, there can be what seems like an awful sound coming from the valvetrain around 3,000 RPM. I don't know if there is something "resonant" about 3,000 RPM, but it's been a normal part of Honda engines, some more than others. All you can do is shift up and/or back off the throttle to try to get out of that RPM range if it bugs you.

In summary, I believe you are describing two different conditions. Try using a higher octane gasoline for a couple full tanks, and only judge your engine noise when it's fully warmed up. You should have no noise. Back off on the octane until you only experience pinging once in a great while.

"They say" that an engine that lightly pings under occasional moderate load is running at peak efficiency without any concerns for durability.

[ January 20, 2004, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]

 

[theguru]

"They" also say that any pinging at all, considering you can only hear above a certain level, is bad. Long term pinging will damage your engine. Normally your EM should retard the timing to compensate for lower octane fuel. But some will only do this to a point. The dealer or a tuner should be able diagnose the engine to see if it is indeed pinging. The knock sensor will retard the timing if any pinging is observed. On my son's car his after market computer gives a readout of pinging directly, however, this setup costs about $3k. As his is highly boosted he uses 98RON plus Octane boost. Maybe you might try a can of octane boost yourself to see if it still pings. IMO unless you get it properly diagnosed, you will just be guessing.

 

[S2000driver]

theguru said, "The knock sensor will retard the timing if ANY pinging is observed." (emphasis mine)

The knock sensor will not retard the ignition timing for light pinging. This is from what I have read and experienced with Hondas.

Unfortuntately, the Pilot comes with coil-over plug ignition and you have no manual control over ignition timing. I haven't looked, maybe the base timing can be tweaked in the computer parameters.

I agree that any pinging is not desirable for a picky car owner like myself. If my engines ping, for instance when the humidity is lower, I use higher octane to make it go away. This is the case on our 1999 CRV, which saw a compression ratio boost that particluar year to increase hp.

I'm not going to argue the case for mild pinging being acceptable. I've read it many places. Here is one quote from a "they"

Occasional light knocking or pinging won’t harm your engine, and doesn’t indicate a need for higher octane. But don’t ignore severe knocking. A heavy or persistent knock can lead to engine damage.

[ January 21, 2004, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]

 

[RipRocK]

Thanks for your replies, gentleman. I'll cut & paste some excerpts of it to print and take it to my service advisor next time I'm getting my Pilot serviced.

S2000driver: yeah, I have tried premium gas (91 octane) from several different national brands and the noise level and under which it comes out still remained the same. Although, I just put some Chevron's Techron in my last fill-up and the noise level seemed to have subsided somewhat, but then, may be it's just in my head.

I don't know what goes in Techron, but if it turns out that the noise is indeed quieter because of it, then what can I say to the service dept to convince them that I do have a pinging issue with my engine? Thanks.

 

[S2000driver]

Remember I'm suggesting you distinguish between two different sounds that may at first seem to be the same thing.

When your engine is cold, the valve tapping will make a sound that could be confused with pinging. This n

[ January 21, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]

 

[RipRocK]

quote:

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Originally posted by S2000driver:
Remember I'm suggesting you distinguish between two different sounds that may at first seem to be the same thing.

When your engine is cold, the valve tapping will make a sound that could be confused with pinging.

---

I see, I see. I gotcha now. Thanks again.

 

[S2000driver]

quote:

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Originally posted by RipRocK:
I see, I see. I gotcha now. Thanks again.

---

Some of my message was truncated.

I was explaining that pinging sounds like plastic poker chips rattling, and would go away with higher octane.

And that cold valve clatter is a harsher sound that is not affected by octane, and should go away when the engine is warmed up. If not, a valve clearance adjustment may be necessary.

 

[jeepzj]

I had the same pinging with my Grand Cherokee. I used Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner and I have not gotten any pinging for 15K miles or so. Mopar CCC is available at any Chrysler dealer for $7.00 a can. I did a write-up on the JU forum. I can't link you to it now from work since our server doesn't let me in that site. I'll be glad to from home tonight.

 

[Jim Spahr]

If higher octane gasoline did not help and the Techron gas treatment DID help tells me the problem is a carbon build up in the combustion chamber causing the pre ignition. I would continue to use the Techron treatment. I would monitor the TSB's closely and see if any TSB address pinging. I would check the EGR system carefully -note: some trucks don't have EGR's. I would check the computer for codes. It would seem if it is really pinging a MIL fault should be set. The dealer should have done this already.Are the codes 'pinging' related.