Photos of the Set of Michelin Defender LTX M/S-2 I Just Removed

john_pifer

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I would’ve replaced those a hair sooner. Once a tire gets below 4/32”, the rain performance starts to degrade. I don’t care about extracting every mile out of a warranty - I care about tire performance.

Couple a 2/32” tire tread depth with the rear of a lightly loaded pickup in heavy rain and you’ve got a recipe for loss of control. No thanks.

Snow performance degrades below 6/32”, but you likely don’t see much snow.

Perhaps I missed it, but what was your rotation schedule and pattern?

I‘ve got the same Michelins on my Tundra, and they’re very good tires. The fronts seem to get outside shoulder wear and a touch of feathering, while the rears look to be wearing smoothly. I rotate every 5,000 miles and with that, the wear is consistent across the set.
I actually had switched them to the front a while back, but, yeah, that excess wear happened while they were on the back.

I try to rotate every 10,000 miles, but admittedly I don't think I followed that to a "T" with these.
 

john_pifer

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Those tires are designed to work well on wet roads even when worn down. Those tires probably had 10k more miles with his driving conditions.
I do like the fact that the LTX series has full-depth tread sipes, which means that you do, in fact, still get some rain and snow performance even when they're worn down.

The 2 that were still at 4/32" could definitely have gone a bit longer.
 

john_pifer

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It's the side that's typically receiving power in an open diff in a RWD vehicle, as @thastinger noted. This is because it is on the ring gear side of the carrier. Similarly, with 4WD, the left front is the same way, being on the ring gear side and tending to be the wheel that gets power. Of course if that wheel has more traction, the power will shift to the other side, as an open diff always wants to send power to the wheel with the least amount of traction.

This is where the old "posi test" (limited slip test) would come into play.

Take a hold of the driveshaft with the car in the air and rotate in the direction it turns when the vehicle is going forward. The right-rear tire, with an open diff, will go forward, the left rear will spin the opposite direction. Grab a hold of the right rear tire, rotate it CW (forward), the left rear will go in reverse (CW on that side). Go to the left side, rotate the tire CCW (forward), the right-rear will now go in reverse (CCW on its side). This is why, in situation with mostly equal traction, the natural bias is for power to be sent through the right rear; the carrier side wheel, as that's the side with the spider gear that wants to go the same direction as the ring rear.

With limited-slip (of the clutched variety) there are stacks of friction disks on either side of the carrier behind the spider gears with a spring pushing the spider gears into them. In this situation, turning the driveshaft forward will result in both wheels spinning the same direction because the spider gears are "locked' together by the clutches; they are not free to spin. Grab a hold of either of the wheels and spin them "forward", the other wheel goes the same direction. With this setup, it takes force to break the friction bond between left and right, which is why a "tight" limited slip can chatter going around corners as the clutches slip. Friction modifier is added to reduce the friction, making the slipping easier and eliminating chatter. Contrarily, drag racers with cars that are still street driven will add another friction and/or a heavier spring to make it require significantly more force to slip. This is also why a truck with a limited slip is so eager to step out if the road is crowned, as both wheels naturally want to go to the same speed all the time and if neither have traction, it will slide the direction the crown wants to take it.

An automatic locker is similar, except that typically the unit functions as an open diff most of the time until traction is lost and then both shafts are locked together. An electronic locker is typically open as well, but requires power (usually a magnet or electric motor arrangement) to lock the wheels together. My SRT has a complex electronic locking rear differential that's also limited slip, so not only does it naturally want both wheels to go forward, if there is a torque imbalance that overwhelms the clutches, the unit will, electronically, mechanically couple the shafts together for maximum traction.

It likely operates similar to this Porsche unit:
View attachment 89692

Another type is the Torsen torque vectoring arrangement, which works opposite an open differential, sending power to the wheel with the most traction. These tend to avoid the "stepping out" effect you get with limited slip and lockers.
Thanks. I was familiar with the basics of an open diff in that I knew that in a limited traction situation, all power applied would go to the wheel with the least grip. What I didn't know was the fact that there's a drive bias towards the RH wheel.

I guess that's a good argument for cross-rotation, because it means that, comparatively, the tires on the RH side of the truck will receive more wear.
 
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Michelin warranty is only valid when you replace with another Michelin, Uniroyal, or BFG. Since I bought a set of Yokohama in advance, I wasn't eligible, but they offered 25% off a set of tires from one of those brands if I buy within a year.

I am curious if that discount would apply in addition to the $70 mail-in rebate that's being offered right now (listed on The Tire Rack site; not sure if the rebate is from Tire Rack, or from BFG). If so, that would be a good deal on a set of BFG K02s or Trail Terrains.

That promotion is listed to end on Feb 23, however.
That has not been my experience. I have benefited from tread life warranties on at least two occasions that I can recall. The first was a set of Pirelli that I replaced with a set of Michelin. The second was a different set of Michelin Defender that I replaced with a set of Continental Control Contact.
Both of these were through Discount Tire. I have heard that the larger tire stores have more buying power with the manufacturers, and thus have more pull to get better warranty conditions for their customers.
 

john_pifer

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That has not been my experience. I have benefited from tread life warranties on at least two occasions that I can recall. The first was a set of Pirelli that I replaced with a set of Michelin. The second was a different set of Michelin Defender that I replaced with a set of Continental Control Contact.
Both of these were through Discount Tire. I have heard that the larger tire stores have more buying power with the manufacturers, and thus have more pull to get better warranty conditions for their customers.
This came straight from a Michelin rep. The old Defenders were at Discount Tire, but as soon as the rep heard that I had already bought a new set of Yokohama, she pretty much lost interest in helping me. I convinced her to go ahead with the process (they require an inspection by an authorized dealer), which she did, but she told me it probably wasnt going to matter, or be honored.

Later, I got the email, offering 25% off a set of Michelin, BFG, or Uniroyal, as long as I bought them within 1 year.

Admittedly I haven’t searched out the warranty contract and read over it.
 
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This came straight from a Michelin rep. The old Defenders were at Discount Tire, but as soon as the rep heard that I had already bought a new set of Yokohama, she pretty much lost interest in helping me. I convinced her to go ahead with the process (they require an inspection by an authorized dealer), which she did, but she told me it probably wasnt going to matter, or be honored.

Later, I got the email, offering 25% off a set of Michelin, BFG, or Uniroyal, as long as I bought them within 1 year.

Admittedly I haven’t searched out the warranty contract and read over it.
Well, you did that all wrong. What you should have done is BEFORE you went to the tire shop is call the tire manufacturer and see what they could do. Then AT the shop, have the counter guy call to verify the arrangement (or finish out the deal), that way you would have the tire shop all set up to send the tires back, which is the normal procedure. At that point, you can switch brands, because the tire shop doesn't care - the only thing they need to do is send the tires in for credit.
 
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This came straight from a Michelin rep. The old Defenders were at Discount Tire, but as soon as the rep heard that I had already bought a new set of Yokohama, she pretty much lost interest in helping me. I convinced her to go ahead with the process (they require an inspection by an authorized dealer), which she did, but she told me it probably wasnt going to matter, or be honored.

Later, I got the email, offering 25% off a set of Michelin, BFG, or Uniroyal, as long as I bought them within 1 year.

Admittedly I haven’t searched out the warranty contract and read over it.
I have never spoke to a tire manufacturer rep for any of my tire warranty claims. The Discount Tire counter guy took care of it for me. They measured remaining tread, calculated miles on the tires vs warranted mileage, and then told me how much of a credit I got towards new tires. It came right off what I paid for the new tires.

My recommendation to anyone who gets less mileage out of a set of tires is to let Discount Tire do what they do best. Let them take care of you as a customer.

Whet it was my first tread life claim with Pirelli tires, I was worried that to get warranty, they would want me to take another set of Pirelli. But I wanted to try something else. The Discount Tire counter guy assured me that I could use the credit towards any tire. He explained that with Discount Tires buying power, they work with tire manufacturers so that Discount can handle warranty claims and make it easy for the customer.

If you find yourself making another claim, speak with your Discount Tire store. There is an ideal remaining tire tread for making a tread life warranty claim. My DT has always been helpful in getting me the best deal.
 
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Realized I must have accidentally double-attached one of the photos. Oh well, you get the picture. A couple of them were down to around 4/32”, 1 was at 3/32”, and the worst one was around 2/32”.
At my work and me personally; when tires are at 4/32 tread they get replaced. I dislike yellow&red 😎
 

john_pifer

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Well, you did that all wrong. What you should have done is BEFORE you went to the tire shop is call the tire manufacturer and see what they could do. Then AT the shop, have the counter guy call to verify the arrangement (or finish out the deal), that way you would have the tire shop all set up to send the tires back, which is the normal procedure. At that point, you can switch brands, because the tire shop doesn't care - the only thing they need to do is send the tires in for credit.
Since I’d gotten close to 70K out of the last 2 sets of LTX, I honestly thought I’d put many more miles on them than the 43K.

I took the truck and the new tires (I ordered them from Tire Rack) to the shop, walked home to wait for them to be mounted, and at that point I thought to myself to pull out the receipt from when I bought the tires.

I was shocked to find that they only had 43K.

Im going to keep a closer watch on my new set.
 

john_pifer

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I have never spoke to a tire manufacturer rep for any of my tire warranty claims. The Discount Tire counter guy took care of it for me. They measured remaining tread, calculated miles on the tires vs warranted mileage, and then told me how much of a credit I got towards new tires. It came right off what I paid for the new tires.

My recommendation to anyone who gets less mileage out of a set of tires is to let Discount Tire do what they do best. Let them take care of you as a customer.

Whet it was my first tread life claim with Pirelli tires, I was worried that to get warranty, they would want me to take another set of Pirelli. But I wanted to try something else. The Discount Tire counter guy assured me that I could use the credit towards any tire. He explained that with Discount Tires buying power, they work with tire manufacturers so that Discount can handle warranty claims and make it easy for the customer.

If you find yourself making another claim, speak with your Discount Tire store. There is an ideal remaining tire tread for making a tread life warranty claim. My DT has always been helpful in getting me the best deal.
It’s just that no locals stores had the tires I wanted. I checked.

So I ended up ordering from Tire Rack.
 

john_pifer

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Tire wear is mostly about how many turns you make. Live in the city where one makes a lot of turns, and you don't get many miles out of tires. Live in the country and you get more miles. Driving in a straight line is practically free!
Fact is, something about the Defender LTX M/S-2 has been changed, compared to the set of LTX M/S-2 I had before, as I got close to 70K out of the 2 sets of those that I ran, compared to the 43K these had when I pulled them off.

Nothing about my driving changed. I’ve lived in the same place, with the same commute, for the last 8 years.
 
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Fact is, something about the Defender LTX M/S-2 has been changed, compared to the set of LTX M/S-2 I had before, as I got close to 70K out of the 2 sets of those that I ran, compared to the 43K these had when I pulled them off.

Nothing about my driving changed. I’ve lived in the same place, with the same commute, for the last 8 years.
Pretty sure the Defender LTX M/S compound is different than the LTX M/S and LTX M/S2.
 
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Pretty sure the Defender LTX M/S compound is different than the LTX M/S and LTX M/S2.
Here is more info on the differences:


 
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It's the side that's typically receiving power in an open diff in a RWD vehicle, as @thastinger noted. This is because it is on the ring gear side of the carrier. Similarly, with 4WD, the left front is the same way, being on the ring gear side and tending to be the wheel that gets power. Of course if that wheel has more traction, the power will shift to the other side, as an open diff always wants to send power to the wheel with the least amount of traction.

This is where the old "posi test" (limited slip test) would come into play.

Take a hold of the driveshaft with the car in the air and rotate in the direction it turns when the vehicle is going forward. The right-rear tire, with an open diff, will go forward, the left rear will spin the opposite direction. Grab a hold of the right rear tire, rotate it CW (forward), the left rear will go in reverse (CW on that side). Go to the left side, rotate the tire CCW (forward), the right-rear will now go in reverse (CCW on its side). This is why, in situation with mostly equal traction, the natural bias is for power to be sent through the right rear; the carrier side wheel, as that's the side with the spider gear that wants to go the same direction as the ring rear.

With limited-slip (of the clutched variety) there are stacks of friction disks on either side of the carrier behind the spider gears with a spring pushing the spider gears into them. In this situation, turning the driveshaft forward will result in both wheels spinning the same direction because the spider gears are "locked' together by the clutches; they are not free to spin. Grab a hold of either of the wheels and spin them "forward", the other wheel goes the same direction. With this setup, it takes force to break the friction bond between left and right, which is why a "tight" limited slip can chatter going around corners as the clutches slip. Friction modifier is added to reduce the friction, making the slipping easier and eliminating chatter. Contrarily, drag racers with cars that are still street driven will add another friction and/or a heavier spring to make it require significantly more force to slip. This is also why a truck with a limited slip is so eager to step out if the road is crowned, as both wheels naturally want to go to the same speed all the time and if neither have traction, it will slide the direction the crown wants to take it.

An automatic locker is similar, except that typically the unit functions as an open diff most of the time until traction is lost and then both shafts are locked together. An electronic locker is typically open as well, but requires power (usually a magnet or electric motor arrangement) to lock the wheels together. My SRT has a complex electronic locking rear differential that's also limited slip, so not only does it naturally want both wheels to go forward, if there is a torque imbalance that overwhelms the clutches, the unit will, electronically, mechanically couple the shafts together for maximum traction.

It likely operates similar to this Porsche unit:
View attachment 89692

Another type is the Torsen torque vectoring arrangement, which works opposite an open differential, sending power to the wheel with the most traction. These tend to avoid the "stepping out" effect you get with limited slip and lockers.
That was an excellent post thanks.
 
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