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Fair enough but I have yet to see of any of the maladies some members get on their soapbox about.
Periodically starting a car in cold weather.
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Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Fair enough but I have yet to see of any of the maladies some members get on their soapbox about.
And you likely won't. But think of pouring 5% of the oil capacity of your engine in as GASOLINE. Might clean things up a bit, but in no way can it be viewed as an improvement, eh?
No offense meant here, but earlier you were talking about the wind chill across your radiator. That is simply not true, as wind chill doesn't affect most inanimate objects. So you have to admit that some of your ideas are just as screwy as you say ours are....
Fair enough but I have yet to see of any of the maladies some members get on their soapbox about.
And you likely won't. But think of pouring 5% of the oil capacity of your engine in as GASOLINE. Might clean things up a bit, but in no way can it be viewed as an improvement, eh?
No offense meant here, but earlier you were talking about the wind chill across your radiator. That is simply not true, as wind chill doesn't affect most inanimate objects. So you have to admit that some of your ideas are just as screwy as you say ours are....
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Fair enough but I have yet to see of any of the maladies some members get on their soapbox about.
I think you're confusing what most members are saying here. This thread is not about idling to warm up an engine, it is about whether or not periodically starting a vehicle in cold weather helps maintain the batteries health. Most members believe that starting your vehicle for 10-15 minutes simply for the sake of the batteries health is counter intuitive to the vehicles health overall. The reason most say this (myself included) is because we have zero evidence showing that doing so positively affects battery health, we also have zero evidence saying that it is a negative for its health. However, what we do have is evidence, err I would call it indications, that idling a cold vehicle increases fuel dilution which CAN decrease an oils ability to lubricate. We also know that most wear is caused at start up before the oil has reached operating temp, by idling a cold vehicle for 10-15 minutes the oil will never reach operating temperature thus creating wear and tear of the engine. Now here is where I think you're missing the mark, by stating that fuel dilution and wear occurs you think we're suggesting that we're going decrease the life of our engine by a measurable and substantial amount. That's not what we're saying, we're stating that by increasing potential engine wear for the sake of increasing battery health, when we've got no evidence that it helps, it's a lose-lose situation.
Fair enough but I have yet to see of any of the maladies some members get on their soapbox about.
I think you're confusing what most members are saying here. This thread is not about idling to warm up an engine, it is about whether or not periodically starting a vehicle in cold weather helps maintain the batteries health. Most members believe that starting your vehicle for 10-15 minutes simply for the sake of the batteries health is counter intuitive to the vehicles health overall. The reason most say this (myself included) is because we have zero evidence showing that doing so positively affects battery health, we also have zero evidence saying that it is a negative for its health. However, what we do have is evidence, err I would call it indications, that idling a cold vehicle increases fuel dilution which CAN decrease an oils ability to lubricate. We also know that most wear is caused at start up before the oil has reached operating temp, by idling a cold vehicle for 10-15 minutes the oil will never reach operating temperature thus creating wear and tear of the engine. Now here is where I think you're missing the mark, by stating that fuel dilution and wear occurs you think we're suggesting that we're going decrease the life of our engine by a measurable and substantial amount. That's not what we're saying, we're stating that by increasing potential engine wear for the sake of increasing battery health, when we've got no evidence that it helps, it's a lose-lose situation.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Fair enough but I have yet to see of any of the maladies some members get on their soapbox about.
And you likely won't. But think of pouring 5% of the oil capacity of your engine in as GASOLINE. Might clean things up a bit, but in no way can it be viewed as an improvement, eh?
And that's only the part that still shows up as gasoline. Cold, incomplete combustion puts all sorts of unburned hydrocarbons, carbonic acid (CO2 + water vapor under pressure- PLENTY of that in the untreated exhaust that blows-by into the crankcase) traces of sulfuric acid from sulfur compounds in the fuel, etc. etc. All that stuff doesn't start coming back out of the crankcase until its over 100F in there.
OK- realistically ALL that is better than letting a battery freeze, or becoming stranded in the kind of cold that could freeze a battery. If THAT is the choice, sure! Idle the engine. If the battery is weak, don't risk it But how cold does a healthy, charged battery have to be to freeze? REALLY cold! About -75F for a fully charged battery. So assume even with a slight discharge you're not going to freeze the battery until -50 to -60F.
And every time you start the car and let it idle for a while, the battery charge is going down if you don't run the engine quite a while. The start removes a certain number of joules from the battery- more in cold weather than in hot weather- on top of that cold batteries charge more slowly than warm batteries too. Even in the warm, it takes more time than you think (5-10 minutes) to REALLY re-charge the energy removed by starting. There's a big initial charge, but charging is a chemical process. For it to be complete, the battery has to be held above the threshold voltage for enough time for all the cells and all the individual plates that make up a cell to come to chemical equilibrium with the electrolyte.
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Fair enough but I have yet to see of any of the maladies some members get on their soapbox about.
And you likely won't. But think of pouring 5% of the oil capacity of your engine in as GASOLINE. Might clean things up a bit, but in no way can it be viewed as an improvement, eh?
And that's only the part that still shows up as gasoline. Cold, incomplete combustion puts all sorts of unburned hydrocarbons, carbonic acid (CO2 + water vapor under pressure- PLENTY of that in the untreated exhaust that blows-by into the crankcase) traces of sulfuric acid from sulfur compounds in the fuel, etc. etc. All that stuff doesn't start coming back out of the crankcase until its over 100F in there.
OK- realistically ALL that is better than letting a battery freeze, or becoming stranded in the kind of cold that could freeze a battery. If THAT is the choice, sure! Idle the engine. If the battery is weak, don't risk it But how cold does a healthy, charged battery have to be to freeze? REALLY cold! About -75F for a fully charged battery. So assume even with a slight discharge you're not going to freeze the battery until -50 to -60F.
And every time you start the car and let it idle for a while, the battery charge is going down if you don't run the engine quite a while. The start removes a certain number of joules from the battery- more in cold weather than in hot weather- on top of that cold batteries charge more slowly than warm batteries too. Even in the warm, it takes more time than you think (5-10 minutes) to REALLY re-charge the energy removed by starting. There's a big initial charge, but charging is a chemical process. For it to be complete, the battery has to be held above the threshold voltage for enough time for all the cells and all the individual plates that make up a cell to come to chemical equilibrium with the electrolyte.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Fuel dilution........ How about 5%?
Too bad I can't mail you the electronic feedback carb I took off the F-150. I threw it straight into the garbage.
Fuel dilution........ How about 5%?
Too bad I can't mail you the electronic feedback carb I took off the F-150. I threw it straight into the garbage.
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Look guys, I get it; I really do. Caring is another matter entirely. My vehicles are tools - period. I wash 'em. I wax 'em. They got winter tires. All the maintenance is up-to-date. My vehicles are important in my life. But I'll be [censored] if I'm going to be uncomfortable in an effort to minimize the after effects some of you guys rant about from a prolonged idle. That's ridiculous. I do all of that and spend that money so I can enjoy it. I will idle my vehicle all day if that's what I gotta do to feel comfortable. I have never had a problem and never will. Nor will anyone else who idles.
RamFan, I'm not missing the mark. There's just 15 threads going on this same topic right now and this is the one I jumped in. I have an '05 Astro WITH THE ORIGINAL BATTERY!!! I swear to God it is! Tell me where on the battery you want me to take a picture of to prove it and I will. No problems with my battery. Four times early this week I started the van and let it idle while I shoveled, which took about an hour each time. When I was done, I shut it off and went in the house and never drove it. I'm experiencing none of the calamity you say might happen. If there is a trace amount of wear or evil stuff happening during the combustion process, it's not showing itself physically or through UOA.
Steve, sorry, should have put chill in quotes. I only phrased it that way because so many people here love to throw those numbers out to make themselves sound more hardcore than the next. If you notice in my post you refer to I gave the ambient temperature not wind chill. I know wind chill is only for human skin. I'm not in sunny Florida. The point you are writing off because I said wind chill is that I got arctic air blowing into my radiator and oil cooler and around the oil pan at 45 MPH with the engine at 1200 RPM as I'm cruising. How is that better for anything than idling? It idles at 1000 when cold sitting in my carport. I'm barely off idle during my routine drive except now I got wind forced through everything. How is that better? Do you think my oil is getting sufficiently warm? No, it ain't.
Guys and girls, I'll say it again, it will get smashed be me or by some texting high school girl or get traded off long before one of the best engines (4.3l GM V-6) shows any wear because I let it run for 20-30 minutes in artic cold.
Extreme cold. Extreme heat. Stop-and-go. Texting teens. Blind old people. Deer. Pick your poison. None of it is good and will contribute more to the loss of your engine far sooner than idling will.
RamFan, I'm not missing the mark. There's just 15 threads going on this same topic right now and this is the one I jumped in. I have an '05 Astro WITH THE ORIGINAL BATTERY!!! I swear to God it is! Tell me where on the battery you want me to take a picture of to prove it and I will. No problems with my battery. Four times early this week I started the van and let it idle while I shoveled, which took about an hour each time. When I was done, I shut it off and went in the house and never drove it. I'm experiencing none of the calamity you say might happen. If there is a trace amount of wear or evil stuff happening during the combustion process, it's not showing itself physically or through UOA.
Steve, sorry, should have put chill in quotes. I only phrased it that way because so many people here love to throw those numbers out to make themselves sound more hardcore than the next. If you notice in my post you refer to I gave the ambient temperature not wind chill. I know wind chill is only for human skin. I'm not in sunny Florida. The point you are writing off because I said wind chill is that I got arctic air blowing into my radiator and oil cooler and around the oil pan at 45 MPH with the engine at 1200 RPM as I'm cruising. How is that better for anything than idling? It idles at 1000 when cold sitting in my carport. I'm barely off idle during my routine drive except now I got wind forced through everything. How is that better? Do you think my oil is getting sufficiently warm? No, it ain't.
Guys and girls, I'll say it again, it will get smashed be me or by some texting high school girl or get traded off long before one of the best engines (4.3l GM V-6) shows any wear because I let it run for 20-30 minutes in artic cold.
Extreme cold. Extreme heat. Stop-and-go. Texting teens. Blind old people. Deer. Pick your poison. None of it is good and will contribute more to the loss of your engine far sooner than idling will.
You are absolutely right about the car being a tool and I totally agree with your approach to the matter. I'm not going to baby my car, it has to serve me. For me that means, start the car, clear snow and ice, buckle the kids in and drive off, not necessarily in that order. I'm dressed for cold and so are my kids because I simply do not have time to warm up the car for 30 minutes or more. Some might see it as abusive too.
Personally I don't think excessive idling is good, but I really don't care what you do and I'm sure you don't care what I think.
Personally I don't think excessive idling is good, but I really don't care what you do and I'm sure you don't care what I think.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
No offense meant here, but earlier you were talking about the wind chill across your radiator. That is simply not true, as wind chill doesn't affect most inanimate objects. So you have to admit that some of your ideas are just as screwy as you say ours are....
If someone were worried about cold soak between runnings windchill would lessen the time taken to fully cool off again. The "idling crowd" seems to see it as not just a battery charging gimmick-- it gets oil and antifreeze warmer as well.
I get not being close to an outlet for the block heater/ battery blanket and desiring some way to keep things warmer. Auxiliary Power units like from 18 wheelers would be pretty sweet if they could downsize them to car size.
But then, what's the payoff for an APU compared to idling one's engine during a once-in-a-decade cold snap?
No offense meant here, but earlier you were talking about the wind chill across your radiator. That is simply not true, as wind chill doesn't affect most inanimate objects. So you have to admit that some of your ideas are just as screwy as you say ours are....
If someone were worried about cold soak between runnings windchill would lessen the time taken to fully cool off again. The "idling crowd" seems to see it as not just a battery charging gimmick-- it gets oil and antifreeze warmer as well.
I get not being close to an outlet for the block heater/ battery blanket and desiring some way to keep things warmer. Auxiliary Power units like from 18 wheelers would be pretty sweet if they could downsize them to car size.
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