Penz Lack of ACEA Specs bother anyone Else

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Fallguy

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ISLAC & API specs are for cats and squeezing out mpg. With that I think more people here are worried about engine protection which these specs are not geared around.

ACEA revolves a lot more around covering engine protection (look at the link, ACEA 2008 A1 or A5). Pull up the link and look on the graph?

Penz Plat only meets ACEA A1-04 & A5-04 and Ultra does not reference any. People will give Amsoil [censored] for not officially meet a spec why no be quandary on Penzoil.

Does it not bother many to hear "yea we meet the specs but just have not had time to do that official testing thingy"

Valv Synpower and Castrol Edge meet the 2008 A1 & A5 spec.

This is why I have a hard time warming up to Penz Platinum or Ultra although they are likely truly great oils and have excellent UOA's.

Am I not looking at this in an analytical fashion?

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html
 
Talking North American Oil to North American oil available (not euro oil as I don't find that too available in the U.S.)
 
Didn't you have another thread about this?

They don't have the certifications because they chose not to spend the money to perform the testing, since most Americans don't know what API SN means, nevermind ACEA 2008 A1/A5.

If you don't like it, nobody's forcing you to buy Pennzoil.
 
ACEA is a European Spec and not DIRECTLY relevant to North American drivers. For European drivers, there's Shell Helix and other non Pennzoil brands owned by Shell
 
The latest PP data sheet indicates that 5W30 meets A1/B1-08, while the 5W20 and 0W20 meet A1-02. I do not believe non-euro Synpower meets ACEA 08 requirements, especially since they don’t properly state the specs per the latest revisions, stating “Ax” instead of the proper “Ax/Bx”. In the 12/2009 data sheet, Edge claims to exceed A1/A5 and B1/B5. Not sure exactly what that means since “Ax/Ax” and “Bx/Bx” have never been proper ACEA formats from what I can tell.

I don’t exactly understand how oil manufacturers can claim their latest oils comply with obsolete ACEA specs since claims for “new formulations” must be made against specs that have not been withdrawn (such as ACEA 2002 which was withdrawn 11/2006). But I’m certainly no expert on ACEA compliance.

Perhaps the manufacturers are just sloppy with the ACEA formats. But it’s also possible that they want to list ACEA specs for marketing purposes, and do not want to disclose the fact that they really meet an earlier, obsolete (lesser) requirement. If I really wanted an oil that met the latest ACEA specs, I would be looking for an oil that correctly stated the ACEA category (Ax/Bx), along with the year (-08)
 
Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Didn't you have another thread about this?

They don't have the certifications because they chose not to spend the money to perform the testing, since most Americans don't know what API SN means, nevermind ACEA 2008 A1/A5.

If you don't like it, nobody's forcing you to buy Pennzoil.


(1.) Yes

(2.) Most oil companies want to meet and display all specs they meet as they are like medals in essence.

(3.) Did not say I don't like it just trying to understand if it is touted a superior oil (as likely is) what is it technically based on as such since American specs are quite lackluster in many areas.

Anyone know how much ACEA testing costs?
 
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Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
The latest PP data sheet indicates that 5W30 meets A1/B1-08, while the 5W20 and 0W20 meet A1-02.


When I go to the Penz Website I find the PDS for Platinum to be broken (for weeks now).

On the Backs of Platinum Bottles in stores it references the A1 & A5 spec as being A1-04 & A5-04
 
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Originally Posted By: Fallguy
When I go to the Penz Website I find the PDS for Platinum to be broken (for weeks now).

On the Backs of Platinum Bottles in stores it references the A1 & A5 spec as being A1-04 & A5-04


Latest US spec appears to be July, 2010. The stuff on the shelf may not meet A1/B1-08.

For the 7/2010 Platinum spec go to:

http://www.epc.shell.com/

Select language, continue, choose country, type pennzoil in the search box, hit search and find it in the search results.

For US PP 5W30, it's the one with "SAE" in the title.
 
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From the Pennzoil Q&A

Quote:
Question 17:
Why is Platinum 5w30 certified for ACEA A5 / 4718M / HTO-06 but Ultra 5w30 only certified for 4718M and HTO-06, but not ACEA A5? This makes the Ultra 5w30 weaker on paper than Platinum 5w30 in terms of certification.

Answer 17:
ACEA no longer allows the splitting of gasoline (A specifications) and light duty diesel (B specifications), as the diesel side of the specification will not allow US type FE (GF-5) performance, the ACEA specifications will be dropped off all ILSAC GF-5 products in the future.

Rest assured that Pennzoil Ultra™ outperforms Pennzoil Platinum®. The reason for the “paper” specification difference is based on a decision to focus our ILSAC grades more directly on the needs of engines calling for ILSAC performance and addressing the Euro performance with versions of Ultra specifically targeted for European imports. Thus our Euro oils not only exceed the ACEA A/B specifications, but they also address specific needs for VW, MB, BMW, Ferrari, Porsche and Maserati.
 
Since the July 2010 PP data sheet claims A1/B1-08 compliance, along with GF-5 and SN, it would seem either data sheet is in error or Pennzoil found a way to meet both diesel requirements (ACEA “B”) and GF-5. And if the data sheet is in error, and the specs do indeed prevent an oil from meeting both ACEA Ax/Bx-08 requirements and GF-5, don't expect to find an oil from anyone that meets both sets of requirements. Perhaps that's an indication of how much GF-5 has compromised performance in other areas to gain a small increase fuel economy.

It's also interesting that Pennzoil claims ACEA no longer allows splitting of gasoline “A” and diesel “B” requirements but does exactly that by invoking an out-of-date ACEA spec in the case of their 0W20 and 5W20 oils. The July 2010 PP data sheet claims 0W20 and 5W20 meet A1-02.

As an aside Mobil1 claims compliance to A1/B1, and in some cases A5/B5 (but no year), for several oils but does not claim compliance to GF-5 or SN for those same oils. And the data sheets on their site have dates as recent as 11/2010. It will be interesting to see whether they claim compliance to both ACEA and GF-5 at some point in the future.
 
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Originally Posted By: Fallguy
Penz Plat only meets ACEA A1-04 & A5-04 and Ultra does not reference any. People will give Amsoil [censored] for not officially meet a spec why no be quandary on Penzoil.


It (5w30 and up anyway) meets '08.
I just got this PDF (dated July 2010) from them via email after you sent me your copies.

PPforfallguypost.jpg
 
Cu-dos to Pennzoil. The bottles I looked at in a store must have been old as they referenced as A1-04 and A5-04

Why is the A5 not referenced in the info they provided. Much difference between A1 & A5 ?
 
Not too much difference I think. A5 is for HTHS viscosities more than 3.5. I don't know why the 5W-50 isn't listed as A5 unless they just didn't pay to test for it. It looks like A3.
The different numbers are viscosity dependent, and B is for diesel.
 
Hi,
river_rat - You said this:
"A5 is for HTHS viscosities more than 3.5"

Not so! - it would be wise and probably interesting for you to read up on ACEA and its Quality specifications if you haven't already
 
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Originally Posted By: river_rat
I don't know why the 5W-50 isn't listed as A5
If it meets A3 it can't meet A5. They are mutually exclusive.
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Not so! - it would be wise and probably interesting for you to read up on ACEA and its Quality specifications if you haven't already

I guess I misremembered. Sorry. Got a link? I seemed to have lost mine.
 
Doug, thanks for all the ACE info. If I understand correctly A1 and or A5 are to be 2.9 to 3.5 HTHS where A3 goes beyond 3.5 HTS so an A3 could never be an A1 or A5.

With that being said you can then move on to the wear protection deposit levels etc that A1 & A5 are pretty close to each other (per lubrizol spider chart etc.).

Regards
 
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