Pentastar cam opinions

[Fabulous50s]

This is my 20 Promaster 2500 with 85k. I bought it used in 21 with 30k (Amazon lease).

This is my work vehicle, I've run Pennzoil Platinum 5w30, and Mobil 1 Euro 0w40. All oils changed between 5k and 6k.

Oil filter housing oil leak so I tore into it. There is a lot of stuff in the way where they shoe-horned this pentastar where a Fiat 4cylTD was supposed to go.

Had to replace leaking radiator which made access much better for this application.

Found weeping valve cover Gaskets so decided to change those while I was there. Low and behold I see this. Some other cam lobes and rollers look similar. Not inspiring confidence at all.....

What would you do?

Can just feel the right side with your fingernail. The roller has a similar finish on ¾ of it. Other lobes are starting to look like this as well.

I'm tempted to change all the rollers, but the rear bank will be a total PITA. Rear bank looks better overall for some reason.

 

[Fordiesel69]

Why a failure so early?

 

[mattd]

Junk.

 

[D60]

I'm zero help but to declare my ignorance and say I had no idea it was transverse in this application.

 

[Fabulous50s]

Why a failure so early?

Wouldn't I like to know.

These have a known issue with failing roller rockers. But it was supposed to be fixed by the 2019 MY in all applications. Doesn't look like it to me.

Seeks like poor hardening of the camshaft. The needle bearings fail in the rollers and stop turning and take out the cam lobes. I don't see any of that happening here. It looks like it's all going to grenade in 20,000 miles to me!

 

[Fabulous50s]

I'm zero help but to declare my ignorance and say I had no idea it was transverse in this application.

These are FWD. Makes for a low floor cargo van, which was a big reason I chose this over the Ford Transit or Mercedes.

 

[D60]

These are FWD. Makes for a low floor cargo van, which was a big reason I chose this over the Ford Transit or Mercedes.

Yeah I like the concept. One reason the Caravan was ground breaking was FWD, esp here in snow country.

That said, it's not lost on me that a cargo van unweights the front considerably if used as intended.

 

[RooflessVW]

You need a cam and lifters

 

[Fabulous50s]

Yeah I like the concept. One reason the Caravan was ground breaking was FWD, esp here in snow country.

That said, it's not lost on me that a cargo van unweights the front considerably if used as intended.

Very long wheelbase. Rear axle is way back. I've driven many Ford and GM vans in my career. This isn't really any better or worse in the snow. Just exhibits typical FWD understeer in the snow. I'm in northern Maine so we have snow on the ground 5 months a year.

 

[OVERKILL]

Definitely do the cams and roller followers.

I wonder if somebody like Ed Curtis or one of the "custom" cam guys could get you a set of stock lobe profiles on billet sticks?


Would also like to see if this is the lobe surface hardening delaminating, or of if it's the roller follower that's failing, taking out the lobe. Keep us updated.

 

[Fabulous50s]

Reading in pentastar forums it looks like its a total hit or miss if you end up with good (hardened) cams or not from the factory. Some go 200k w/o issue, while others grind away.

I've taken good care of this van, and even done a couple of UOA. They told me I could easily go 6500 mile OCI. SO I've stuck to my 5k and not sweat if I go 5.5k.

That apparently has no effect on if the valve train lasts.

 

[mattd]

Oil can’t help defective materials.

 

[OVERKILL]

Oil can’t help defective materials.

Oh no Matt, remember, the "HEMI Honey" (Burla's Patent Pending!) Redline 5w30, which reversed engine wear and stopped exhaust gaskets from leaking even! BUTTERY SMOOTH!!!!!!!1111ONE

 

[4wd]

Oh no Matt, remember, the "HEMI Honey" (Burla's Patent Pending!) Redline 5w30, which reversed engine wear and stopped exhaust gaskets from leaking even! BUTTERY SMOOTH!!!!!!!1111ONE

That’s fake motor honey - go for the gusto!

 

[bladecutter]

Honestly, if it were me, I would pop off a couple of the cam caps, and look to see if there's visible damage on the camshaft bearing surfaces. If there is, the engine is pretty much already junk at this point, and you might as well begin the hunt for a replacement motor, because you will need to replace the rear bank cams and rollers anyway, so it's pretty much an engine out job at this point (unless rear bank access is better in this van than I'm aware of).

Then, when you get the new motor, you can install the metal Dorman oil cooler assembly and call it good for however much longer you own the truck up there in Maine. How rusty is it currently at 4 years old?

 

[dfarr67]

You already know everything needs replacing or you'll be into it again. My experiance is to make extra effort with the difficult to reach areas.

 

[KrisZ]

Looks like the rollers didn’t rotate freely and ate the cam. Perhaps they started ticking and you simply didn’t notice? It’s usually not a very pronounced tick and cannot be heard from the cabin.

 

[Exhaustgases]

Proves a few things.
1 The good old 1UZFE with cam on the buckets never wore out.
2 Rollers are only good at low speed conditions, industrial engines etc. nothing over 3000 rpm applications.
3 All these little junkster auto engines need flat tappets like the old days. As there are plenty of them (old flatters) still running with zero
issues. My one daily has the flats, cam etc looks brand new, go figure. Seems only the old timers knew how to make a roller last.

And yeah rollers on performance applications, just fine they don't need to last 300,000 miles like in grand ma and pa's putt putt, that cost them repair or replacement bills they can not afford.

 

[Fabulous50s]

Proves a few things.
1 The good old 1UZFE with cam on the buckets never wore out.
2 Rollers are only good at low speed conditions, industrial engines etc. nothing over 3000 rpm applications.
3 All these little junkster auto engines need flat tappets like the old days. As there are plenty of them (old flatters) still running with zero
issues. My one daily has the flats, cam etc looks brand new, go figure. Seems only the old timers knew how to make a roller last.

A few thoughts from my (somewhat) educated opinion having worked in this industry for a few decades.

1. Hardening was better
2. Rollers used to be just a bushing, when they introduced needle bearings is when we started to see failures
3. ZDDP has to play a role here, our anemic oils don't play well with anything flat
4. Cam on bucket is so dead simple and has worked for 40 years. But hardness has to be correct, as well as proper orientation to encourage the bucket to rotate.
5. Rollers have nothing to do with RPM. It is really just a way to have a more aggressive lobe profile (performance) but I suspect Rollers are used to reduce friction and help CAFE to some extent.

Obviously none of that worked for me here....... typical Chrysler quality control....all over the place.

 

[Hohn]

Wouldn't I like to know.

These have a known issue with failing roller rockers. But it was supposed to be fixed by the 2019 MY in all applications. Doesn't look like it to me.

Seeks like poor hardening of the camshaft. The needle bearings fail in the rollers and stop turning and take out the cam lobes. I don't see any of that happening here. It looks like it's all going to grenade in 20,000 miles to me!

No cam is hard enough to shrug off roller skidding from a failed needle bearing.

You’ll never see needle bearings in the roller of industrial engines, it is ALWAYS a bushing. You can probably guess why that is.