Pennzoil YB for a DI engine

[RiotGrip]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Riot - Doesn't your Lexus use TWO injectors in it's DI system? One in the head, and one upstream to keep the valves clean? This is way different than a single injector DI engine.


It does have two injectors, I didn't realize that this is significantly different than GM's DI system.

 

[RiotGrip]

Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
Its an educated observation. Do some searches. Low visc dino will not and has not held up under the heavy fuel loading and it will deposit much more on the valves from burn off. For a higher end power plant such as yours one would assume you have the education and intellect to question such errant manufacturer recommendations.


Having an education and a nice car doesn't mean someone knows or cares anything about engines and oil--I just happen to frequent this site. I was actually surprised that synthetic oil was not recommended given the performance level of the vehicle, but I can't see Lexus making an engineering flaw as basic as proper lubrication for a true high performance engine. I may switch to synthetic just because of the class of car, but I still think the dino (10 qts) would give adequate protection, if not, there will be a huge amount engine failures in a couple of years. I guess time will tell.

 

[Vizzy]

Originally Posted By: saaber1


The data shows that this is absolutely not the case! The VW/Audi 502 standard is a very low standard. 502 oils are not making it to 5000 miles in the 2.0FSI (VW recomends 10k OCI). The ester-based oils that have not been tested to 502 standards are fairing far better than the 502 oils. This also goes for some of the PAO based oils that have not been tested to 502.

Many of the 502 oils have showed very high shear rates, loss of flashpoint, high iron on UOAs as shown above.


Please post the source for your information.

I highly doubt that VW AG or others would recommend a product that is going to cause them future headaches in the way of warranty payouts and the like. They spend tens of thousands testing for proper compatibility and durability in their DI engines.

Even if you find a source that claims what you state above, if you use a non compliant oil in your modern VW DI requires it according to the owners manual, you are asking for trouble when it comes to ANY warranty claims.

Frankly VW would have every right to deny your claim if you purposely used other than the specified oil.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
As we know from data on this site and others the OEMs haven’t yet come to terms with DI, so the OLM is useless and is likely set up to operate on more conventional parameters.



Well, the "data on this site" is really 90% opinions...and I don't think that you or I are smarter than the engineers in regards to the OLM. Me personally, after all the discussions here about DI - I do 5k OCI using Mobil 1 on my CTS DI and just before changing the oil I completely clean the intake to flush whatever "MAY" be on the valves. Preventative ritual for me. My dad has the same car but does not clean the intake and goes by the OLM - which takes him to 9-11k miles. Time will tell how each car makes out down the road - it's like a little test between us. But, so far both cars are doing well.

 

[Nederlander75]

There is quality data on this site from reputable analysis shops in addition to documented issues with DI. I do, however, doubt Toyota/Lexus will have issues with deposits now that they are using port injectors for cleaning and most of us here are aware that these engines wear very well. So wear issues from DI may be mitigated more so than other makes. GMs design is new and we havent seen too many, if any, UOAs from DI apps, but last I recalled they hadnt made any efforts to address the known issues with DI so to be safe one might want to consider taking advantage of protective measures available if they intend on keeping the car.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Always assume all DI engines are either dirty ie lots of deposits from carbon or fuel dilution queens!!!! So really in a DI engine you need an oil built more for a diesel then for a gasoline engine and you really need to run a fuel injector cleaner like Redline Si-1 every time you fill up. It does not matter if it is a GM or Audi or Toyota DI engine they all fall into one of the two above catagories or both!

I would be runing something like Redline 5W40, RTS 5W40,Delvac-1 5W40 and maybe and this is a maybe M1 0W40!

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
Always assume all DI engines are either dirty ie lots of deposits from carbon or fuel dilution queens!!!! So really in a DI engine you need an oil built more for a diesel then for a gasoline engine and you really need to run a fuel injector cleaner like Redline Si-1 every time you fill up.



AGAIN - fuel does not touch the valves on a DI engine therefore no amount of fuel additives added to the tank will ever do anything to help. You have to clean via the throttle body/vac hose or manual cleaning with the intake off.

 

[Vizzy]

As long as the MFR doesn't advise against it. I would absolutely due a TB and induction chamber cleaing with every oil change. Actually I DO think that some induction chamber cleaners that have a sprayer type unit (that usually clips into the TB and allows solvent to be atomized into the induction chamber and valves could be VERY effective at keeping deposits from building up to the point were you could not easily remove them with just a solvent cleaning...

I'm thinking of the 3M TB+Induction chamber cleaning kit.

 

[Nederlander75]

Perhaps. But, some what we would call experts on the matter feel that since fuel is also escaping into the intake so would the heavier cleaning agents of the fuel and additives added additionally. It is also getting into the oil, which is getting into the intake.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
Perhaps. But, some what we would call experts on the matter feel that since fuel is also escaping into the intake so would the heavier cleaning agents of the fuel and additives added additionally. It is also getting into the oil, which is getting into the intake.


Yes, I can see that point but I wonder if it is enough to do any good? I think a really good intake cleaning is what is needed to keep it all in check.

 

[mechanicx]

I think all that is need is really good oil/vapor separators on the PCV and breather. Oil contaminating the induction tract on properly running engines isn't as bad as you'd think on a properly working engine. Gasoline would leave much more deposits on valves than oil would if it weren't for gasoline additives.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I think all that is need is really good oil/vapor separators on the PCV and breather. Oil contaminating the induction tract on properly running engines isn't as bad as you'd think on a properly working engine. Gasoline would leave much more deposits on valves than oil would if it weren't for gasoline additives.



That's what I was thinking in the back of my head. Now maybe when these DI engines get real old and worn the blowby may cause valve deposits but as a new engine I'd think all would be pretty good. But I have seen some Audi (or VW?) pics with an engine really gummed up at like 10k miles. I'm just gonna clean the intake as a preventative maint item at each oil change.

 

[mechanicx]

Yeah a worn engine with blowby past the rings or worn valve seals and guides could put more oil into the intake, but I just don't think it would be much of an issue. With those Audi and VW sludged pics, was it intakes sludged or general engine sludge? I think there's something wrong with those engines that has nothing to do with DI.

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Please post the source for your information.


I already posted 5 examples above. In addition we have a database of roughly 50 UOAs for the 2.0FSI DI engine. Here is a link to an old version of that database.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1554022/

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
...With those Audi and VW sludged pics, was it intakes sludged or general engine sludge? I think there's something wrong with those engines that has nothing to do with DI.


It is a direct result of DI. No fuel is available to keep intake and intake valves clean as noted above. The PCV goo enters the intake manifold where it leaves deposits on the intake runners and tumble flaps. Next place to deposit is the intake valves where you may have seen the many pics I have posted at 2k, 8k, 22k, 75k, 100, miles to name a few.

Of course this material then makes it to the cylinder where it contributes to deposits on plugs, fuel injectors etc. It is thought to contribute to ring deposits as well. Thus using fuel injector cleaner will help, but only for the fuel injectors and upper cylinder, not the intake valves which get no fuel.

As a side note, when I used SL-1 injection cleaner, it seemed to survive the combustion process to some extent. That run showed fuel and decreased flashpoint. This was the only run of roughly 6 runs that showed this. We need more testing to see if it does actually survive the combustion process and if so what affect, if any, this may have on valve deposits. Can't tell anything based on one run but it made me curious.

The valve buildup is the primary issue and causes many secondary adverse effects. Many of these are spelled out in VW's patent for the engine. This engine needs proper tumble flow for complete combustion. The valve deposits prevent that.

Also, it should be noted many of the pics I posted were on vehicles that have oil separators (both aftermarket and OEM) so don't think that will solve the problem for the 2.0FSI anyway. They help, but are pretty ineffective at stopping contaminants in the vapor stage. A permanent fix is to eliminate pcv gases getting to the intake tract. I have posted elsewhere several options to do this. I also agree with the folks above who recommend periodic "seafoaming" or induction service. I would recommend performing these before an oil change to prevent oil degradation.

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
Always assume all DI engines are either dirty ie lots of deposits from carbon or fuel dilution queens!!!! So really in a DI engine you need an oil built more for a diesel then for a gasoline engine and you really need to run a fuel injector cleaner like Redline Si-1 every time you fill up. It does not matter if it is a GM or Audi or Toyota DI engine they all fall into one of the two above catagories or both!

I would be runing something like Redline 5W40, RTS 5W40,Delvac-1 5W40 and maybe and this is a maybe M1 0W40!

I agree with what you said except for 2 points.

(1) The Toyota engines with a separate injector for the intake seem to mitigate a lot of the intake problems that are well documented on BMW, Porsche, AUdi/VW, Mazda? engines.

(2) the vw-approved M1 0W40 shows higher iron levels than the other oils on the 2.0 FSI database and the shear rates vary from 15-25% for that oil (note that adeere's 99% highway runs are the exception and look great with any of the oils he has run). I would not use it in my DI engine. Also look at this photo of an engine which used m1 0w40 since new changed at 10k intervals according to the manual. You cannot blame it strictly on the oil of course but one would have to think that volatility must have played some role. Ester-based oils are a better option IMO. They are naturally low in volatility and resist coking (depends on the specific formulation how well it does of course).

M1 0W40 iron levels shown in yellow. X axis is miles on vehicle and y axis is ppm Fe/1000 miles

Croda coker panel test