Pennzoil Ultra 5w-30---7,500 miles---92 Civic VX

[ltslimjim]

So, as I've feared it appears coolant is finally getting into the engine. The previous results can be seen in the image file below. I used Lubro-Moly MoS2 with this oil, hence the higher moly.

Does this mean a headgasket is likely the cause? Is there any other point of entry in the oil from the cooling system? Thank you.

Oil filter used: Royal Purple 10-2808
Air filter used: aFe Pro Dry S(for last half of the OCI, away from K&N...only real positive trend, sigh lol)

Code:
OIL PENNZOIL ULTRA 5w-30

MILES IN USE 7,500

MILES ON UNIT 265,000

SAMPLE TAKEN 06/06/12



ALUMINUM 3

CHROMIUM 1

IRON 23

COPPER 6

LEAD 8

TIN 0

MOLYBDENUM 281

NICKEL 1

MANGANESE 0

SILVER 0

TITANIUM 0

POTASSIUM 51

BORON 146

SILICON 14

SODIUM 173

CALCIUM 3268

MAGNESIUM 26

PHOSPHORUS 798

ZINC 893

BARIUM 0



SUS VIS 210ºF 59.3

cSt @ 100ºC 10.01

FLASHPOINT ºF 420

FUEL%
ANTIFREEZE% 0.35

WATER% 0.0

INSOLUBLES% 0.5


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1884/4thvxreport.png

 

[demarpaint]

Probably the head gasket. Did you pressure test the cooling system? Could the report be wrong? It happens often enough to get me wondering. Are you adding coolant?

 

[DemoFly]

Headgasket for sure. Headlift is really common in Hondas and it's also common for them to run perfect despite burning or seeping coolant into oil because of their water jacket design.

Like said above do a pressure test, if you decide to fix the headgasket I do not recommend reusing the headbolts.

 

[Artem]

Yea a buddy of mine with a 95 Accord has been using coolant as lube for quite sometime now and it's still running just fine. He's adding coolant weekly.

 

[ltslimjim]

Yes, I have been adding coolant for a bit now, only more recently was it 'oh, this isn't good'. I had suspected weeping issues at the water pump seal, and I don't know if the engine seals were replaced with the previous timing service, FWIW.

The car just made a 1,750 mile trip and it got great mileage, oil consumption didn't appear to be bad, though I suppose coolant getting in it's hard to say now.I'd hope most coolant is expelled, this could explain some of the other symptoms if it's getting in during combustion, one would hope it's not a settling issue during cooldown? I don't know how it would work exactly. A leak is a leak, I suppose.

I had the engine pressure tested over 2 years ago when purchased used, and it passed. I will have the cooling system pressure tested and the official diagnosis made with the head gasket replacement to follow.

Thanks for the suggestions, as well as any other tips moving forward on the likely HG job. I'll be shopping for parts, etc soon enough. I'll just have to find out what the shop will charge.

Hope to keep this car running for years. Will report back on this thread with future results as a long-running update for this engine.

 

[DemoFly]

Cavitation and electrolysis will eat away at the cylinder head given time, so it's good that you're being adamant about it.

Lucky for you, you have probably the easiest car to change a headgasket on, back when I was into hondas I could do them in under an hour in a parking lot.

 

[Turk]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim

Hope to keep this car running for years.

Good! Get it done ASAP. Try to get the coolant concenrtation to 60-70%. 50% is borderline acceptable and can lead to extreme heat/cold issues.

Hey - how much MOS2 did you put in?

 

[dmk]

Keep in mind although a Honda it is over 20 years old with 265,000 mi. on it.
Don't know where the OP is from as he doesn't indicate it however the car does have a shelf life and if in a Northern climate things are going to be pretty rusty.
Unless this is something besides a college kid car or short trip back up I wouldn't worry about it.

Are you the original owner or do you have the full service history?

 

[Ibrahim]

PU is still available in the market, I can't seem to find it anywhere in Toronto or Greater Area since last summer except at NAPA but they only had 1L bottles!

 

[ltslimjim]

I added about 2/3s of the MoS2 can, IIRC. Maybe closer to 3/4s, so a little bit of an overdose(ever so slight).

This car is driven is the south-eastern US mainly and it has little rust problems. Just put a clutch in the car this past December and I know relatively the condition of the vehicle. I'd rather drop another 1,000 into this car than purchase used, which I can't afford outside of on credit right now anyway.

I can do this job myself? Really? Please please any tips would be most welcome. I've been posting about this over at ETCG's website. He also says it's probably the easiest headgasket to replace.

Any specific tools I'll need? I know I need to get a reliable torque wrench. I'll probably use the factory/dealer kit w/ new head bolts. I may buy from an online honda parts site.

Thanks for the feedback. Want to take care of this ASAP.

 

[zoli]

You take care very well this 20 years old Honda!
Just 1 remark: you can find oil in the coolant in case of head-gasket failure.
Worth to change it if it runs well otherwise.
***
Edit: I would try a thicker oil (5W40).

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
I'd rather drop another 1,000 into this car than purchase used, which I can't afford outside of on credit right now anyway.


I know how you feel. My 98 Camry is falling apart slowly but i'd rather keep dumping money into it (up to a point) then buy a used car with unknown maintenance history and problems.

If i can squeeze another 80k outta my Camry (300,000 total miles) i'd be happy with my overall investment since it was purchased new in 97' and easily donate it to someone in need.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim


I can do this job myself? Really? Please please any tips would be most welcome. I've been posting about this over at ETCG's website. He also says it's probably the easiest headgasket to replace.


It's not just in inline 4, it's a Honda inline 4! If you can change out belts and have decent close up vision and some patience you can do it. This will be your first head gasket, right? Have some patience and don't try to do it as fast as a mechanic would. Take your time and follow the Honda service procedure closely. Don't go crazy trying to clean surfaces with abrasives. Make sure you have time and transportation available for when you have to go buy that one tool you didn't expect to need. If possible, have a woman on call to provide extra supplies such as German potato salad or cold beer as needed.

 

[addyguy]

Despite the coolant leak, the wear is very low.

I'd be inclined to buy the cheapest 10W-30 you can get, and change it every 3-4k. Wear would be so low it wouldn't affect engine life, and would save you a bundle.

$1k+ on 20-year old compact with 270k miles is NOT a good investment!

 

[yonyon]

How much of that $1k is labor though? If he does it himself, there's that much less cost. If the head isn't straight, then the charges at the head shop are unavoidable but a set of gaskets and bolts plus some oil and coolant aren't going to go for $1k.

Granted Itslimjim's time also has a value but only he can decide the value of that time, and only he can put a value on the experience gained from doing the disassembly and assembly. There's plenty of opportunity for "oh that's what one of those looks like" and "now I see how that thing works" to be had. This can help with recognising and diagnosing problems for the rest of his life.

For some people it can also be interesting and/or fun.

If he's not confident he can do it himself and has to pay for it to be done, well, then it's time to consider the overall condition of the car and it's real world value to him, not on the open market.

Itslimjim, if you don't fix this car (or get it fixed by a mechanic), how long do you expect it to continue operating? When you replace it, how much will that cost? In replacing the car, what additional value would you expect to gain in the new vehicle?

 

[ltslimjim]

^Yes, the $1k is mainly labor/re-machining based on one quote.

I can get all parts aside from the random bolt that breaks, etc...for about $140 or so and learn to do the job myself and take my time.

I may have to do this anyway.

I've read so many experiences just browsing that folks have replaced their HG without machining, etc on these I4 Civic engines that I just I have to wonder why I'd be concerned with machining mine since I didn't have an overheat?

I realize some things might be 'preferable' and 'best' if done 'right', but if a straight edge doesn't reveal 'red flags' why not go forward without paying more labor/time to just replace it and do a good job of cleaning/aligning/putting things back together?

I'm trying to work myself up to just doing this myself, as I need to get some tools, etc. The process seems as simple as a HG job to learn on. If I don't have to remove the IM, that's 1 less part of the process, of course much harder to remove the head with the IM still attached, lol.

 

[jsnyder49090]

Well at a grand i would do it myself what do you value the car as? I would base my decisions on that.If your going to do it you may want to grind the valves while your in.I dont know what the car looks like or what its worth but they make some pretty decent snake oil cures now.Moroso super seal for anti freeze and conklin come to mind.Dont tell anyone i told you that tho.

 

[ltslimjim]

UPDATE:

Awkward twist.

A friend that agreed to do the job initially did some compression testing and cooling system pressure testing. The results?

Compression is good across all 4 cylinders, dry and wet compression.

The cooling system holds about 17 psi strong without backing off.

...to top it all off here is the valve-train (first time I've seen it since owning the car mind you, I'm not a mechanic):

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7465/1004056k.jpg

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6840/1004055m.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5498/1004057.jpg

so.......

Original head or replacement? At least the valve-train? He says it looks too clean for 260k miles. I've only had it for 35,000 miles or so; almost 3 years. The PO claims they did the 3,000 religious oil changes, etc.

So, I don't know what to do. My buddy advised holding off, he was willing to do the job but hesitant b/c of the rest of the data not making sense.

To be fair, this oil analysis was the first with confirmed coolant. Mistake? I do have consumption now that I didn't have before and I don't see it leaking externally(much, I did recently however have a hose that started leaking slightly)...

Does this mean it's the oil cooler? Here's a pic below of the design:

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13sr301_e13.png

It's about $230 without replacing the center bolt b4 shipping. Not sure about local price on dealers.

To top it all off, now I have the parts for the HG job that might not need to be done. However, with the pics of the valve area...I don't know what to think.

Not sure how to test the oil cooler aside from just removing and replacing. (Maybe run fluid through the cooling passage with it removed from the vehicle and see if it seeps into the oil galleries?)

Lastly, aside from 'block testing' with a kit, he suggested getting the coolant analyzed. Personally, I don't know why the difference. I'd just as soon rent a block-tester kit and confirm if there are combustion gasses in the cooling system. If that's true, and I have coolant getting into the oil where else OTHER than the hg? Could the block/head be warped or cracked from an overheat by the PO that is just now showing? AFTER 3 years of owning with no symptoms and I've never had it overheat?

My head is spinning. Please help. I can't fix both financially, though I suppose pulling the head may confirm if the block/head is warped or cracked at least. Thus, replace those parts anyway since I've got the replacements on hand...and bite the bullet if I need to replace the oil cooler later, changing the oil a bit sooner than I have been(3,000 max until coolant is gone).

 

[tommygunn]

Does this Civic VX still get over 50MPG? This car may be one of the best MPG car of the last 20 years.

 

[ltslimjim]

^No, it's hard to consistently get 40 MPG mixed for a number of reasons. Engine mounts(some wheel hop and vibration from the IACV, potentially other sensor like TPS, though not common I'd almost more likely suspect wiring at the connectors at this age of the vehicle).

That's the thing, fuel economy has gone from the short trips(mostly trips of 5 miles or less) and the few longer trips(usually 15 miles or so)...down to around 35 MPG in my area from 40 since owning the car. I replaced the LAF sensor, there were stored codes for VSS and VTEC solenoid or it's pressure switch.

I was losing coolant for once at a noticeable rate. Before it would start consuming simply at the overflow tank. Then, it would more quickly consume and start disappearing at the radiator's cap.