Pennzoil 5w20, 3050 miles, Chrysler 3.5 HO

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quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
So what's the conclusion when we have a bunch of UOAs that show the opposite effect? I.e., when you increase the viscosity, the wear metals decrease. Hmmm...let's see...wasn't it the Patman that had just such an experience?

Yes, but that was in my LT1 Firebird, which is basically a modern small block Chevy 350, so it's clearances would never like a thinner oil like G Man's engine obviously does.

This report is better than I expected for sure! I know the 5w20s do well in the new Hondas, Fords and Mazdas, but never expected it to do well in this engine. I do have to ask though, how often does this engine ever see full throttle?
 
quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
So what's the conclusion when we have a bunch of UOAs that show the opposite effect? I.e., when you increase the viscosity, the wear metals decrease. Hmmm...let's see...wasn't it the Patman that had just such an experience?

I think for some engines, thicker is better.

That being said, I don't think I've seen a "bunch" of UOAs on here where someone has gone to a thicker oil and the wear metals have gone down. Can you post links to them?
 
quote:

Originally posted by Patman:
This report is better than I expected for sure! I know the 5w20s do well in the new Hondas, Fords and Mazdas, but never expected it to do well in this engine. I do have to ask though, how often does this engine ever see full throttle?

Not too often. I don't have a lead foot, so full throttle only happens if I need that much power. On this run, probably no more than two or three times, and I can only remember the tach seeing the redline one of those times in 2nd gear (merging into traffic on the Interstate).
 
quote:

Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
So what's the conclusion when we have a bunch of UOAs that show the opposite effect? I.e., when you increase the viscosity, the wear metals decrease. Hmmm...let's see...wasn't it the Patman that had just such an experience?

I think for some engines, thicker is better.

That being said, I don't think I've seen a "bunch" of UOAs on here where someone has gone to a thicker oil and the wear metals have gone down. Can you post links to them?


By bunch, I meant a grouping of UOAs such as yours. Thats why I referred to Patman's UOAs. I'll search for his when I get a chance, unless, he has his in a nice pretty chart already. Patman, you got a chart of your UOAs handy.
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quote:

Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

Originally posted by Patman:
I do have to ask though, how often does this engine ever see full throttle?

Not too often. I don't have a lead foot, so full throttle only happens if I need that much power. On this run, probably no more than two or three times, and I can only remember the tach seeing the redline one of those times in 2nd gear (merging into traffic on the Interstate).


Here might be the key. A well built modern engine with relatively low miles, driven conservatively might do well on these oils. My usual drivng habits entail at least a half dozen full throttle runs and as many meetings with the redline, daily.

On another note, what did you have in your engine before the M1? Since we're developing theories here, might it be that the M1 and the GC "cleaned" the engine of residual wear metals while the Penzoil just let them accumulate inside the engine?
 
Great report from a thin dino!!

My theory about the moly is that it's a good thing, but zddp is the primary anti-wear. With your engine and driving style, I doubt you saw the extreme of temps necessary to "activate" the moly.

There is a lot more to why this oil worked well than just saying, "well it has lots of moly." Unless this is a newer type of moly that kicks in at normal temps.
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I'm thinking along the lines as Haley as well because of the lead and tin. Notice those values went up, even with a saturated dose of moly, when compared with the M1. The lead and tin are indicative of bearing wear so in fact, the oil is not protecting the bearings as well as it could be when compared to other oils. The copper is probably coming from bronze bushings. The Ford modulars are showing almost no bearing wear whatsoever, even with the 5W-20's. With that in mind, I for one would not be using a 5W-20 in that engine.
 
Pennzoil 5W20 seems more prone to shear than Havoline dino 5W20,Motorcraft 5W20 or M1 0W20.

Maybe you should try one of those nextime.
 
I must be missing something here. The lead goes from 1 to 3, the tin goes from 0 to 1 and we think this is better? I know the iron and copper are important but I believe the lead and tin are more important indicators of bearing wear. We also know copper takes awhile to come down in several engines. I guess the difference from 3 to 1 is not very siginificant. For this application I would still return to Mobil 1 10w-30 but that is just my opinion.
 
quote:

Pennzoil 5W20 seems more prone to shear than Havoline dino 5W20,Motorcraft 5W20 or M1 0W20.

I tend to agree with this statement after observing several UOA's over the past year or so.

If I'm not mistaken, though, the Pennzoil and Motorcraft (Conoco) base oils are made at the same lubricant facility in Lake Charles...if true, why the discrepancy in shear? My guess is shearing characteristics are more due to different engines / operating conditions. This is just a lay opinion and I'd be interested to hear what someone with more insight has to say.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 59 Vetteman:
Last Z,

I have a diesel truck that calls for 15W40 oil and I am running a 5W30 oil in it year around pulling an average load of 8K. So back to your viscosity/additive theory, you may want to reassess it. JMO

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Vette,

Hydrodynamic lubrication is the first line of defense against metal to metal contact.........additives are the second line! That's a fact......NOT a theory I made up!
Look, I'm not forcing anybody to run thicker oils and I truly believe this is an outstanding report; all I'm saying is that you can get the same results with the 5W-30 oil and still have a bigger margin of safety. The only argument I'm making here is that 5W-20 leaves very little room for error.

BTW, there are quite a few outstanding reports with 50W in all kinds of vehicles and are always put down as "thinner oil would have done better!"

Whatever tickles your guys' fancy!
 
quote:

Originally posted by TR3-2001SE:
I must be missing something here. The lead goes from 1 to 3, the tin goes from 0 to 1 and we think this is better? I know the iron and copper are important but I believe the lead and tin are more important indicators of bearing wear. We also know copper takes awhile to come down in several engines. I guess the difference from 3 to 1 is not very siginificant. For this application I would still return to Mobil 1 10w-30 but that is just my opinion.

I don't think you are missing anything!
It would be very interesting to get Terry's take on the issue!
 
quote:

Originally posted by Last_Z:
It would be very interesting to get Terry's take on the issue!

The verdict is in from Terry. I'll keep my comments general. Since Terry considers his interpretations proprietary, I'll let him comment on specifics if he so chooses. Here's a brief synopsis, though: The few metal numbers that increased marginally are from other sources; not wear. To say that Terry was blown away by the low iron number would be a monumental understatement. Drop in vis not an issue since oil is still a solid 20 wt.

Here's a couple of quotes that I know he won't mind: "Wear rates are the BEST I have seen in this engine ..." "If this doesn't bear out my preaching on flow rate regardless of vis nothing will!" And I say "Amen" to that.
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5w20 rocks!
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quote:

Originally posted by 59 Vetteman:
You are correct in that the analysis by Terry will be interesting.
My own opinion is that we on the board spend all day arguing about viscosity. If your wear metals are low, and insoluables are low, no fuel dilution, who really cares about the Vis number. Wear is the reason for doing an anlaysis along with potential problems. JMO (and I am not changing it)
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And after all the other posts, I still have not changed my opinion.

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Vetteman, your 100% right. I don't know why this debate keeps going on and on? It's ridiculous actually. If the UOA shows it's working then leave it alone. The 20wts have proven themselves and the manufacturers would not recommend oils that cause pre-mature engine failures and risk their reputation. You have to match the right viscosity with the right engine, period. For most daily drivers, their is NOTHING wrong with 20wt oils and some are proving to be better then the 30wts.
 
quote:

Originally posted by buster:

For most daily drivers, their is NOTHING wrong with 20wt oils and some are proving to be better then the 30wts.


Factor in some fuel dillution with a 20wt that shears like this , a few trips to redline and or both makes for a 5w-30 that shears to 9.2cSt a far better choice for an engine the maker called for a 30wt originally ... IMO of course
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In this thread are a couple links to other Pennzoil 5w-20 analysis's and info on Pennzoils claimed starting viscosity of this oil .

5w-20

See ya in a little over two weeks forum members ..... it's vacation time
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quote:

Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

Originally posted by Last_Z:
It would be very interesting to get Terry's take on the issue!

"If this doesn't bear out my preaching on flow rate regardless of vis nothing will!"


Well heck, that does it. I'm immediately dumping all the oils out of my vehicles and filling them with 0w-5. That should bring the flow rate up!
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quote:

all I'm saying is that you can get the same results with the 5W-30 oil and still have a bigger margin of safety. The only argument I'm making here is that 5W-20 leaves very little room for error.

I agree with this. I'm not saying I'd use a 20wt in every engine or every condition, but the oils are aparently working well for most daily drivers. It's a good point though that Z makes in that you do have a margin of safety with the 30wt oils. These 20wts though are just impressive though and could be formulated with better/more additives and actually in some cases be better then the 30wt counterparts. Look at M1 0w-20. Doesn't that outperform the M1 5w-30? I think it does.
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Well, I'm glad some of you are coming back to your senses. As I stated, the report could not possibly look any better, BUT as Motorbike stated, some fuel dilution and a couple of WOT runs on top of the "normal" shearing of this oil, and you can easily end up with a 10W oil.
I would feel more confortable running M1 0W-20, just because it would "supposedly" hold its viscosity better.
I believe what Terry says, but we also need to keep in mind the kind of abuse (lack thereof) this oil saw.
G-Man, how about stomping on the gas a few times next OCI? It will keep your injectors and valves clean too!
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