"Peak" OK for my MOPAR ???

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A couple of weeks ago I replaced the coolant in my '72 Valiant 318 V-8 with fresh Peak/distilled water approx 8 qt peak and 9 qt H2O. Wouldn't dare messing with block drain plugs and thats all the water I could get out w/o loosening the lower hose. "Flusshed" system with Prestone flush and fill fitting in heater hose and garden hose water supply and ran ~6 gal of distilled through before adding antifreez.

Previously had SuperTech/distilled water 50/50 which was about 20 months old.

The water pump casting is aluminum and the block and heads are cast iron and the radiator core I assume is copper.

Couldn't find any listing of the ingredients of Peak except ethylene glycol and proprietary additive, as printed on the container. Says "safe for all metals".

The radiator looked fine from waht I could see. No corrosion visible and I also replaced one of the heater hoses and no corrosion or slime seen at the connections there.

Any potential problems with this mix? Thanks.
 
That is pretty much as close as you can get today to the original factory fill. Actually it is probably a bit better. With those mixtures of metals, it is probably your best choice of what is available.
 
HerkyJim,

It seems you've followed an excellent procedure with your Valiant and BigJim is absolutely correct in that you've acheived a coolant mix that is no doubt superior to the original Valiant's coolant package.

I personally like the Prestone flushing agent (GM engineering also has approved this flush for use in their Dexcool® equipped vehicles and I assume you used the powderized version of their flush), as this flushing agent is organic (citric acid based). I can only offer a couple of additional suggestions.

The shelf-life of a coolant's additive package (conventional green or asian red) is listed as 6 to 12 months by the ASTM (American Society of Testing Materials). Most people confuse that with the shelf-life of the ethylene glycol. Glycol itself never really goes bad (it only becomes contaminated over time in service), but glycol is a material that is a known to be caustic to metal, so an additive package capable of neutralizing its negative effects is necessary. In any coolant you purchase, it is the additive package that goes bad, not the glycol itself, and you can test your coolant for its additive strength by using an appropiate test strip that tests for a coolant's nitrate levels. (these strips are available from most auto parts stores, but I know that NAPA carries them and the NAPA part number is 4106).

(Caution: Volkswagon calls for a nitrate free coolant to prevent possible headgasket damage, but they are the only manufacturer with this restriction)

Because of the known short shelf-life of green or asian red coolant, it is "highly" recommended that when installed as new, you must boast the base conditioner or nitrate package with a quality conditioner. I know for a fact that Motorcraft FW-19 or BG 546 have been tested to provide the necessary boast in conditioners "required" even with new, off the shelf coolant. (recently Ford has introduced a new coolant referred to as Ford Gold. This coolant is of extremely high quality and its rated shelf life has been tested to be 24 to 36 months, its also very expense, but worth every penny)

General Motors has been marketing their Dexcool® as having a 5 year, 150,000 mile service life, while engineers at Texaco (the people who actually developed Dexcool®) have stated that this statement of 5 years relates to its shelf-life ONLY and not to its time in service. For proper maintenance, you should flush a Dexcool® equipped vehicle every 36 months or less. We all should find that this error on the part of GM marketing is in fact true, once the settlement of the class action lawsuit against General Motors, over their incorrectly stating a 5 year service life of Dexcool®, is reached.

The second suggestion is to also include an organic system sealer. Available everywhere are those little hard pellets that you install into your coolant to prevent or stop any potential systems leakage you may have. You can get those sealer pellets from a GM or Mopar dealership or from you local parts store. These pellets are actually ginger-root flour that are safe for all coolant types and systems. The real advantage is that any of the flour fibers, remaining in your system that haven't plugged a hole, bio-degrades out of your cooling system in about 30 days or less.

The brand of coolant you purchase (conventional green or asian red) is meaningless, as the strength of the inhibitor package in even the most expensive coolants (except for the new Ford Gold), is only good for a maximum of 12 months, on the shelf, and when purchased a known good conditioner package needs to be added anyway, so save some money on your coolant and spend the money you save on a known good conditioner to add. Be careful though, on the conditioner you purchase, as the vast majority of over the counter conditioners are all but useless. In the past, aftermarket coolant conditioners contained silicates and phosphates as their primary active ingredients, but because silicates and phosphates are toxic to the emzymes in Dexcool®, most aftermarket suppliers have removed these silicates and phosphates and their conditioners are nothing more than glycol mixed with a low percentage of distilled water (read the label). I don't know about all the available conditioners out there, but in at least two cases (Wynn's and MOC) the conditioners marketed are an incredible waste of money. For anything other than Dexcool®, or some of the new hybrid coolants, then Motorcraft's FW-19 is outstanding and if you are using an extended life coolant (Dexcool® or any of the hybrids), then BG Product's 546 SuperCool© is the only choice I am aware of. (BG SuperCool© works in all coolant types; green, asian red, Dexcool®, all hybrids, and the silicate & phosphate free coolants)
 
quote:

Originally posted by Bearracing:
...General Motors has been marketing their Dexcool® as having a 5 year, 150,000 mile service life, while engineers at Texaco (the people who actually developed Dexcool®) have stated that this statement of 5 years relates to its shelf-life ONLY and not to its time in service.

If true, then someone might mention to Havoline's DEX-COOL marketing department that their current DEX-COOL Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant jugs still describe the useable service life of DEX-COOL in terms of up to five years. If I were in the jury box, in my mind, that continued advertising claim would make Havoline equally culpable with GM in the event a product liability award is ultimately decided against GM. I'll admit I'm not familiar with the case, but, for some reason I suspect the real issue is over certain domestic GM engine families, not DEX-COOL per se. Keep us posted. So WHEN did this alleged class action consumer product liability trial start? Which court? What state? How many plaintiffs are on record as represented? Who is/are the law firm(s) representing the plaintiffs?

[ August 28, 2005, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
 
Additionally I must also take a moment to comment that I found the rest of your post in general, and your apparently vast knowledge of the organic and inorganic branches of chemistry in particular, well, interesting to say the least . . . (Keep up your legendary work!
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)
 
quote:

Bearracing:

(Caution: Volkswagon calls for a nitrate free coolant to prevent possible headgasket damage, but they are the only manufacturer with this restriction)

DexCool and its clones (the VW coolant is a variation on DexCool) are all nitrite-free.


quote:

BG Product's 546 SuperCool© is the only choice I am aware of. (BG SuperCool© works in all coolant types; green, asian red, Dexcool®, all hybrids, and the silicate & phosphate free coolants)
http://lubegard.com/automotive/radiator_koolit.html

http://lubegard.com/automotive/KOOLIT_comparison_poster.pdf
 
With any fluid used in the modern engine or vehicle, the issues surrounding its performance characteristics and/or operational conditions is a complex subject.

Coolant, seemingly a simple fluid, is in fact a complex issue onto itself. To perform upto the expectations of the engine engineers, a modern coolant must meet a wide range of performance characteristics.

Ethylene glycol, the base for nearly all coolants today, is of itself caustic to metals (ever wondered why anti-freeze has never been available in a metal can?), so there have been a number of chemical additives included to reduce this particular problem. In addition these same additives also reduce the problem of electrolysis (dissimilar metals in an acid equal a battery, and years ago it was common for an automotive technician to use a volt meter to calculate the level of electrolysis in a vehicle's cooling system). Another concern is that the coolant have excellent thermal absorption characteristics, so the need for a wetting agent is important to reduce the coolant's surface tension. And then there's anti-foaming agents needed, to keep the coolant from foaming, thus reducing its thermal absorption performance. There's also the rust inhibitors, water pump lubrication additives, and the requirement of balanced pH factors.

Adding to this, Texaco developed and patented their new (new in 1995) coolant with the trade name, Dexcool® and General Motors agreed to use this coolant type exclusively (except for Saturn and diesels initially). Its easy to assume that Dexcool® is the same as any of the so-called "extended-life" coolants, referring to the comment of "..Dexcool® and its clones...", but the technology behind Dexcool® is radically different than just removing the silicates & phosphates in coolant, then calling it an Extended-Life coolant. The base inhibitor package in Dexcool® is a di-acid enzyme (a living organism from an abstract point of view) that bonds to the surface area of your cooling system, forming a barrier between the surface of an engine's cooling system and the ethylene glycol/water mixture.

Another concern is that conventional coolants (green or asian red), new and on the shelf, normally have a pH of 6.5 to 7.5, while Dexcool® typically has a pH of 9.5 to 10.0, partially answering the question as to why Dexcool® has a shelf-life of 5 years, where conventional coolants are limited to 6 to 12 months, before the additive package needs to be boasted.

It should be stated that Dexcool® is an excellent coolant, but there are some conditions or problems that have become apparent since its use beginning in 1996. General Motors started by stating (in the owner's manuals of all GM products using Dexcool®) that the coolant was good for 5 years or 100,000 miles (they later changed the mileage to 150,000 in response to Ford's claim of 7 years and 150,000 miles for their extended life coolant called "Ford Orange"). Where GM said 5 years service life, Texaco stated "up to" 5 years in service. There's no question that Dexcool® is generally good for a longer period of time than conventional coolants, but even Dexcool® will eventually become contaminated with insoluble metals. Where conventional coolants generally need to be flushed every 18 to 24 months, Dexcool® should be flushed every 24 to 36 months or so.

The biggest problems associated to Dexcool® are several, the most noteable being that the average vehicle owner has confused "extended-life" with "maintenance free"! The first problem noted by the dealer's service departments, has been the so-called "Mississippi Mud Syndrome", which was determined to be primarily caused by the vehicle owner allowing their vehicle's coolant level to drop, thus exposing their cooling system's surface to the atomsphere (oxygen, silicates, and phosphates are toxic to the di-acid enzymes used in Dexcool®) and rust immediately is formed and contaminates the coolant, giving it that rusty mud color.

Secondly, Dexcool® has proven to be somewhat corrosive to various components, if left in a vehicle for over 36 months or so, particularily with the water pump, radiator, and intake manifold gasket. Because the warranty for these components ends at 36 months and/or 36,000 miles, a class action lawsuit has currently been filed against General Motors over their use of this coolant. It is my understanding that the suit was prompted by the California Department of Consumer Affairs, due to the high number of consumer compliants they've received over the issue of coolant system repairs needed on GM products, after the warranty of 36,000 miles and before the vehicle has reached 100,000 or 150,000 miles, as stated in a GM vehicle's owners manual.

Micky_M kindly provided a link to Lubegard, where some comparison charts are located. The comparison charts are fine, but Lubegard, Redline, and the other products shown there are generally just consumer level products, though I will admit, based on the ASTM test results provided, that Lubegard's "Kool-It" appears to be superior to some of the commercial products I'm acquainted with (specifially Wynn's, MOC, and JB commercial). The ASTM test that's missing, that directly relates to providing corrosion resistance in Dexcool®, is the ASTM D-2809 test. Here BG SuperCool® is very high rated and I would be curious to see how Lubegard Kool-It performs here.

In the past, as a consumer level product, I have noted that Lubegard's products are generally okay, as testing has shown, but I find that their marketing claims to be so misleading and erroneous to really make me wonder about them. For example, they market an ATF additive that they claim will "convert" Mercon III/IV into Mercon V, which is a neat trick considering that Mercon III/IV are petroleum based ATFs, while Mercon V is a synthetic based ATF! They also claim that their ATF additive is OEM approved, but the fact is that the base chemistry they use is OEM approved and not their product specifically.
 
Well, I don't know about all of that...all's I know is the radiator was recored in April '04 and I put back in the SuperTech green and distilled water I had drained out. That stuff had been in there since Nov'03. I didn't see any corrosion a couple weeks ago when I replaced the old stuff with the Peak, so I didn't add any chemical flush, just ran garden hose water through it for a while and then the 6 gallons of still water before filling it with antifreeze and water. All this complicate stuff gives me headache. Glad I got a simple car.
 
Wowie-Zowie! What truly amazing facts, Bearracing...
gr_eek2.gif
(What would be the purpose of enzymes [specific proteins which function as digestive catalysts] in antifreeze/coolant products? Also, would you educate all us functional techno-illiterates on the availability and specific transmission model applications for Mercon III and Mercon IV ATF [or is that a combined Ford specification for late model 16 cylinder Lincoln Zephyr GT automobiles manufactured in the former Yugoslav Republic?])
 
quote:

Bearracing:

.... Its easy to assume that Dexcool® is the same as any of the so-called "extended-life" coolants, referring to the comment of "..Dexcool® and its clones...", but the technology behind Dexcool® is radically different than just removing the silicates & phosphates in coolant, then calling it an Extended-Life coolant. .....

The basic chemistry appears in several coolants, many of them OEM:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=000161#000000

For example, the BASF G 30 for VW, G 33 for Peugeot and Citroen, and G 34 for GM products are all versions of what we call "DexCool" in the U.S..

With a very slight change in chemistry, so slight that you can mix them without any problems, you can remove the "DexCool" label, avoid the licensing fees, and still be compatible with DexCool.

If you'll look at the LubeGard website you'll see the OEM approval involves service bulletins (they reproduce one for Saab) recommending LubeGard for transmission shifting problems.

The issue regarding Mercon V is semantic. The only ATF that is Mercon V is one which meets the Mercon V specifications. What LubeGard does is provide similar friction characteristics, and their charts make that clear.


.
 
__________________________________________
quote from Mikey_M:

With a very slight change in chemistry, so slight that you can mix them without any problems, you can remove the "DexCool" label, avoid the licensing fees, and still be compatible with DexCool.

__________________________________________________

Being compatible and being the same are two different issues. Water is compatible with Dexcool® and so are a number of so-called Extended-Life coolants, but that doesn't mean they are the same, as the only thing coolant suppliers have to do is remove the silicates and phosphates from their base additive package and then the coolant is compatible with Dexcool®. The reality is that the technology developed by Texaco does provide for some performance characteristics that factually extend the normal service life of the coolant.

The coolant additive package, in any given coolant, is designed to improve the thermal performance of that coolant, provide for some level of lubrication for a cooling system's moving parts, and provide some protection to the cooling system components from the caustic effects of ethylene glycol. With the wide use of aluminum and various aluminum alloys currently, additional protection is needed to protect these metals from the ethylene glycol itself. Texaco developed Dexcool® where the technology includes a base di-acid enzyme, which goes a long way at protecting aluminum parts from oxidizing pre-maturely. Because Dexcool® also has a higher pH, the possible production of insoluable metals is vastly reduced (as compared to conventional green or asian red coolants). A number of coolant suppliers have merely removed the silicates & phosphates (making them compatable with Dexcool®) and then claiming their coolants are extended life, without using the patented technology developed by Texaco. Merely removing the silicates & phosphates will, on average, extend the service life of an ethylene glycol based coolant in a specific application, but on the whole, the process of doing this could be off-set by other potential problems.


_________________________________________________
quote from Mikey_M:

If you'll look at the LubeGard website you'll see the OEM approval involves service bulletins (they reproduce one for Saab) recommending LubeGard for transmission shifting problems.

__________________________________________________

The problem I was referring to, where Lubegard is misleading, this here is precisely my reference. They claim OEM approval, which seems to indicate that "ALL" OEMs have approved Lubegard's ATF conditioners, but nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, Saab lists Lubegard as being approved, but Ford, GM, and Chrysler engineering have all taken quite the opposite point of view regarding these claims by Lubegard. Of the big "3", Chrysler was the only one that publically stated they intended to seek legal action against Lubegard, but I assume their (Chrysler's) legal department pointed out that Lubegard never indicated specifically that Chrysler had approved them, as Lubegard merely stated that Lubegard was "OEM" approved and they had at least one manufacturer (Saab) that had done so.

__________________________________________________
quote from Mikey_M:

The issue regarding Mercon V is semantic. The only ATF that is Mercon V is one which meets the Mercon V specifications. What LubeGard does is provide similar friction characteristics, and their charts make that clear.

__________________________________________________

On the surface, your comment that "the issue regarding Mercon V is semantic.", seems reasonable, if taken on face value, but there's a problem in Ford's eyes (Ford engineering) concerning the Lubegard statement of "..converts.."!

Ford specifies their additive package makeup, particularly in the area of friction modifiers and testing has shown that Lubegard does provide the minimum base, as stated by Ford, but the issue of Mercon V being synthetic relates to an entirely different set of conditions Ford engineering intended as improvements.

The ASTM D-4742 test (TFOUT) comparison between Ford Motorcraft DexIII/Mercon III and Mercon V shows a near 50% improvement in the time required for a 0 to 15% pressure break (simply put; Mercon V performs 50% longer at a specific temperature than Mercon III before oxidization renders the fluid as failed) and the primary reason for this is because Mercon V is a synthetic blend. The major advantage of synthetic motor oil or synthetic transmission fluid is their difference in thermal response performance over a petroleum based fluid.

If Lubegard stated that their product brings the base additive package of DexIII/Mercon III up to the specifications listed by Ford for Mercon V, I don't think anyone would question that, not even Ford engineering, but to state that Lubegard "converts" DexIII/Mercon III into Mercon V is a very erroneous claim.

The real killer to transmission fluid is its operating temperature and in 2001, the transmission engineers at General Motors (Chevrolet Division), in response to an ad compain by Saturn Marketing, where they were claiming 100,000 mile intervals between recommended transmission fluid drains, performed a rather extensive field test.

I have a copy of the data from that test, by the GM engineers, and the results are quite interesting. Based on their test results, with vehicles driving under real-world average conditions, the transmission fluid was found to have failed (oxidized) sufficiently, where its replacement would have been recommended every 12,000 to 15,000 miles. The 100,000 mile service recommendation was true only if the fluid temperature was maintained (100% of the time) at 175º F or less, which is kind of difficult considering that with majority of vehicles, the radiator (engine coolant) is used to cool the vehicle's ATF and most thermostats are set at 185º to 195º or even higher.

I should explain, maybe even appologize, that I have a tendency to look at the subject of automotive service, from the point of view of my career (40+ years) as a professional automotive service consulant to the commercial side of the industry.

The people I deal with are automotive service professionals, that are performing service at the vehicle owners request and they (the dealerships, independent service facilities, etc.) are charging for these services. Because these businesses are charging for their services, quality is paramount with me, so I tend to question the validity of most of these aftermarket additive suppliers, mostly because the majority are merely in it for the buck and could care less rather their products have any real value or not.

The reality is that if you, as a vehicle owner, follow at least the minumum recommendations of what is listed in your owner's manual, you should, on average, acheive a reasonable service life from your vehicle. If you desire to maintain your vehicle at level higher than the minimums listed by the manufacturer, then that is clearly your option and by doing this, you will in all probability increase the odds (in your favor) at preventing costly repairs down the road and in many cases acheive a cost savings by improving your fuel economy (particurly considering the price of fuel today).
 
quote:

Originally posted by Bearracing:
Being compatible and being the same are two different issues. Water is compatible with Dexcool® and so are a number of so-called Extended-Life coolants, but that doesn't mean they are the same, as the only thing coolant suppliers have to do is remove the silicates and phosphates from their base additive package and then the coolant is compatible with Dexcool®.

Yes they are entirely different issues and you're grossly oversimplifying to the point of misunderstanding Mickey_M's explanation. Water is compatible with any antifreeze/coolant concentrate since it's the recommended diluent for all, but no one stated water is equivalent to any antifreeze concentrate as you implied. Besides, Mickey_M was referring to the fact that Prestone's yellow jug "universal" extended life antifreeze/coolant is chemically identical with that company's GM Approved (and licensed) DEX-COOL antifreeze/coolant concentrate in the gray/silvery jugs. The only differences are marker dye color (yellow-green for Prestone "universal" vs. orange for Prestone DEX-COOL) and not paying GM for its DEX-COOL trademark license. Advance Auto and Wal-Mart Supertech extended life antifreeze/coolants are also made by Prestone, but bottled from bulk shipment by a distribution company in Illinois, and again, they're both chemically the same as Prestone licensed DEX-COOL, but dyed deep green. Ironically Prestone DEX-COOL is not precisely the same chemistry as Havoline DEX-COOL, but DEX-COOL is a perfromance specification, not an actual formula. Both are licensed by GM and pass GM's DEX-COOL performance specification. The Prestone unlicensed DEX-COOL "clones" available under the Prestone name in yellow jugs and the two listed store brands are functionally as well as chemically identical, and fully compatible with Havoline DEX-COOL, including extended service life, though there could be claims problems for GM vehicle owners whose vehicles are still under warranty simply because the alternate dye marker colors would identify them as not being genuine, licensed DEX-COOL. (It would take chemical analysis to verify that SuperTech green extended life antifreeze wasn't a conventional high silicate, phosphated, green antifreeze, and I doubt GM or most owners would bother with the expense and hassle.)
 
Ray H,

My comment about water being compatible with Dexcool® was my weak attempt at injecting a little humor into these posting, nothing more, and believe me I most certainly didn't wish to offend anyone by my peculiar sense of humor, you have most sincere appology for any misunderstanding. And yes, you're absolutely correct that I have oversimplified the issues involving automotive coolants. You will notice that I, at no point, have stated anything that was specific, as I use words like, "generally", "sometimes", "most", "many", or other variations of the same theme. My 40 some years in the automotive service industry has shown me many things, but if there has been one thing I've learned, it is that there are no absolutes.

Re-reading through my earlier postings, it does appear that I was intentionally indicating that if the coolant didn't say Dexcool® on the container, then it must be that all coolants claiming extended-life are rip-offs. It was most certainly never my intent to give that impression, as there are a number of very high quality extended-life coolants available (you mentioned at least one with your comments concerning the Prestone brand of advanced technology coolants, which by all accounts are outstanding products). My original point was that the claims of coolant being good for 5 years, in service, shouldn't be generally accepted as being the gospel. The truth is that the majority of GM vehicle owners, having Dexcool® or equivalent coolant installed, have experienced no problems within that initial 5 year period, but there are also a disturbing number of vehicle owners that have.

There is no way possible to identify which vehicle will experience a cooling system problem and which won't, but general trends can be spotted by an observant service advisor. I train the advisors I work with to, at the very least, "offer" the option for a vehicle owner to service their cooling system prior to the minimum requirements listed in the owner's manual. If the vehicle owner opts to not have a full flush service performed, then the secondary offering of adding a known high quality conditioner is warranted (At this point we only recommend BG Products' 546 SuperCool® universal coolant conditioner, as this is a product that is known to us to be of superior quality to anything we've tested to date. Secondly, the BG engineers are so confident in this product they include, not a warranty, but an automatic "Protection Plan" offering some financial assistance should the vehicle owner experience repair issues with their vehicle's cooling system, for a period of 7 years or 150,000 miles.).

There is a great deal of confusion about what is true and what is untrue about the various fluids used in our vehicles, and I'm only speaking of the confusion that exists among the professional automotive service providers, so I can only imagine the confusion being experienced with the average consumer.

The blame for much of this confusion can be directed toward the vehicle manufacturers themselves, you add the marketing claims from many of the automotive fluid manufacturers (coolant, motor oil, ATF, gear oil, power steering fluid, etc.), then top all this off with an almost infinite number of aftermarket additive suppliers (some almost claiming to possess the cure to the common cold), its a wonder that anyone has a clue as to what is true and what isn't.

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that here we are, a nation having almost an unimaginable number of vehicles that are as much a part of our very society as anything I can think of, yet we are nation of vehicle owners that neglect our vehicle's maintenance care (almost criminally), and when down the road we experience vehicle repair problems, we complain that the original manufacturer built inferior products.
 
Bear,

You do seem very well versed on many automotive issues. I have a couple questions for you.

1. You seem to think Dexcool is the holy grail. What do you think about G-05 coolant? Also, are you sure that Dexcool actually has an enzyme in it?

2. You seem to really like BG's products. Which is, of course, fine. However, I always get a little skeptical when people push one brand repeatedly. Not that I think you profit from pushing their products. It is just that I wonder how many other products you have looked at. Have you investigates the various oil additives liked by bitog members? ARX, Nuetra, LC, FP, SX-UP, VSOT?
 
quote:

Ethylene glycol, the base for nearly all coolants today, is of itself caustic to metals (ever wondered why anti-freeze has never been available in a metal can?),

Not sure how old you are, but when I began getting antifreeze in the 60s it certainly came in a metal can... Zerone(methanol) or Zerex/Prestone (Ethylene glycol).

If they had not wanted to use metal cans then, what would have been the alternative ? The plastic container industry wasn't as sophisticated as now..
 
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