passports and domestic flights

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Originally Posted By: Delta
The thing I don't understand is, I understand that a guys gotta pay his child support, but how's he going to do that if you take away his drivers license? If you can't get to work, I'll bet the support never will be paid...


Therein lies the conundrum.

People who are incarcerated also don't get a break...the arrearage just keeps piling up. So, in theory a guy could get thrown in the klink for something else altogether, and by the time he is released, his past due child support amount is large enough that he...wait for it...gets thrown in the klink. Classic Catch 22 situation.
 
Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
Originally Posted By: Delta
The thing I don't understand is, I understand that a guys gotta pay his child support, but how's he going to do that if you take away his drivers license? If you can't get to work, I'll bet the support never will be paid...


Therein lies the conundrum.

People who are incarcerated also don't get a break...the arrearage just keeps piling up. So, in theory a guy could get thrown in the klink for something else altogether, and by the time he is released, his past due child support amount is large enough that he...wait for it...gets thrown in the klink. Classic Catch 22 situation.


I think the theory is that the guy is hiding money under the mattress so if he doesn't come up with the money they threaten to throw him in jail. He comes up with the money so he doesn't end up there. The problem is that there's a certain percentage of people who have no support system so they can't get the money so they end up getting thrown in jail. There's a large percentage that gets threaten that somehow show up with the money. If they didn't threaten to throw them in jail, then those guys wouldn't pay up which is what happened before. No system is perfect.
 
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
put fathers who owe child support in a bind


So?
21.gif



LOL I have to remind you that not a parents that are in arrears are men. I've personally know two cases were they were women and felt that that reason alone should have excused them. It took a Judge to get their mind right!
 
So I have two current passports, SSN, and a driver license and I need another ID?
 
We can cross into the US with our Enhanced Ontario Drivers Licenses despite what US Customs guards think. I have had to correct them multiple times because they are looking for passports and not aware that our Enhanced Drivers Licenses are valid.
(When I decided last minute to cross for a quick trip and didn't have my passport with me)

That said, flights to the U.S. require Passports but within Canada a government issued photo-id containing the right information is valid. (eg: Drivers License. Enhanced or not)

Supporting links for the Canucks in the crowd:
https://www.ontario.ca/page/enhanced-drivers-licence
https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-scrt/cntr-trrrsm/pssngr-prtct/dcmnts-en.aspx
 
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If you have children your life is already secondary to them, both practically and legally. That they only spoiled your Cancun trip is getting off easy!

Reside in a less draconian state for starters... Being jailed over essentially a civil matter is an example of moron state government in action.

Also consider a secondary citizenship. We are in a globalized world. It's a lot less effort than you imagine.
 
Originally Posted By: DdDd


Reside in a less draconian state for starters... Being jailed over essentially a civil matter is an example of moron state government in action.


If you have kids, take care of them until they're 18. They shouldn't have to sue you to get you to pull your weight. That's why we have laws to take care of them. Not really a civil matter.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino

If you have kids, take care of them until they're 18. They shouldn't have to sue you to get you to pull your weight. That's why we have laws to take care of them. Not really a civil matter.

Exactly.

The odds are 1 in 3 that a marriage will jbreak up with kids involved. So jodsof paying child support when you get married are up there.

"Nah..that will never happen to me..
smirk.gif
"
 
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They don't have to sue. The system is inherently rigged against men, there is no way around that. I'm saying this from the other side of the aisle (I receive child support for one of my kids) but then also receive ZERO from a sperm-donor "dad" of two stepkids I raise. I'd like to champion the policy of stiff penalties, taking away drivers licenses, etc. But the problem is, it just doesn't work if a person is determined enough not to pay, and gets way too many well-meaning individuals caught up in it; many get screwed over through no fault of their own. For every one of them, there's someone gaming the system so I realize the need for harsh and equal treatment-- I don't think there should be blanket rules, rather punishments to be decided on merit/conditions-- but I can see the type of bureaucracy and complexity that would entail. There is no perfect solution.
 
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
put fathers who owe child support in a bind


So?
21.gif



There is no question that the child support laws have been put to use by the criminal element. Paternity fraud is common. One method involves a father who gains full custody of his children, and the mother bringing someone else's children in tow to gov offices.

Government will garnish salary, deplete bank accounts and pay the woman back child support.

It can take years to correct, and the money is never repaid. It's legalized stealing.

EDIT: re paternity testing between 2004 and 2008 showed that between 10 and 19% of mothers had deliberately named the wrong father; none of the women were prosecuted



EDIT 2: UNBELIEVABLE http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/10/10/false-child-support-case-exposes-system-failures.html
 
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It's really bizzarre that passports are linked to child support payments. It's an almost uncomfortable level of privacy invasion. Parenting and divorce matters are personal and should remain that way. Passports are a matter of citizenship status. Two completely different things.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino


If you have kids, take care of them until they're 18. They shouldn't have to sue you to get you to pull your weight. That's why we have laws to take care of them. Not really a civil matter.


If you have kids you'd better make sure they can snag a decent bachelors degree so plan on more than 18 years in the modern world.

There are plenty of people not pulling their own weight. Many are rewarded with welfare. So why is deadbeat dad such ripe target for punishment?

But regardless making civil matters criminal is just plain stupid legislation. How is impairing one's ability to earn a living in any way benefiting the child? Answer, its not just dumb spiteful political nonsense to sell to the voters.
 
Originally Posted By: DdDd
How is impairing one's ability to earn a living in any way benefiting the child? Answer, its not just dumb spiteful political nonsense to sell to the voters.


Answered it before. The threat of jail makes a large percentage of them pay up.

Before that happened, there was no consequences so people didn't pay. If you didn't throw them in jail, everyone else would stop paying. You throw a minority in there so that the majority pays. If you let the minority of them off the hook, then the majority stops paying. Like I said earlier, there's no ideal system.

This is sorta as old as the Art of War. There's a story in there of Sun Tzu saying he could make the palace concubines into soldiers.

“If the instructions are not clear, if the orders are not obeyed, it is the fault of the general. But if the instructions are clear and the soldiers still do not obey, it is the fault of their officers.” – Sun Tzu

Story is that the concubines were ordered to drill as soldiers and didn't take it seriously. He had a couple executed, then they performed flawlessly.
 
In Missouri it's even worse...they can stay on support until age 21, as long as they are in college or trade school and PASSING HALF THEIR CLASSES. I suspect other states have quirks in their laws along those lines too. Paying "child support" on people who aren't minors seems a little silly.

There are nuances to the whole child support "game".
 
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Apparently the IRS is trying to get passport eligibility tied to owing back taxes. Right now, you need to be in deep enough with the IRS that you "must be under a subpoena involving a federal felony prosecution or grand jury felony investigation"
http://traveltips.usatoday.com/can-still-us-passport-owe-irs-back-taxes-100657.html

There are some legal barriers to that happening but rest assured there will be a movement to tie federal tax payments to passport eligibility at some point. Once they tie federal taxes to this process, expect state and local taxes to follow.

Interesting times we live in...
 
Originally Posted By: 92saturnsl2
They don't have to sue. The system is inherently rigged against men, there is no way around that. I'm saying this from the other side of the aisle (I receive child support for one of my kids) but then also receive ZERO from a sperm-donor "dad" of two stepkids I raise. I'd like to champion the policy of stiff penalties, taking away drivers licenses, etc. But the problem is, it just doesn't work if a person is determined enough not to pay, and gets way too many well-meaning individuals caught up in it; many get screwed over through no fault of their own. For every one of them, there's someone gaming the system so I realize the need for harsh and equal treatment-- I don't think there should be blanket rules, rather punishments to be decided on merit/conditions-- but I can see the type of bureaucracy and complexity that would entail. There is no perfect solution.


Yah..Some Family courts are beyond a joke. It all depends on the Judge. My daughter was divorced and the Family Court Judge was a joke. She did get some support for her 3 kids. But she spent way over $100K of her own money trying to recover half of the house. She split..took half the money in the accounts. Her EX keep saying she took everything. The court believed him. Bottom line: She kept the kids but keep fighting to keep them for 10+ years. She lost money in the process.

Her Ex. had a 100% disability so the Kids in theory could have over hallf their college payd. He fought that. He took the kids savings. It goes on and on. Family court did not enforce anything. What a friggion joke.

So as you pointed out..it is tipped in favor of women but it ulltimately usually does not work out that way. Judges in many cases are too lazy to apply the law. Its a mess!!
 
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