Parking lots for Solar Energy?

[OVERKILL]

This thing never did hit capacity and burned some ridiculous amount of nat gas....
A panel farm would have worked better.
If I recall it has yet to hit its numbers.

Yes, Ivanpah was a disaster. As you noted:
- It burns obscene amounts of natural gas every morning to pre-heat
- It cost $2.2 billion for 392MW nameplate with what ended up being a 24% capacity factor, very much on-par with PV production-wise, at a HUGE price premium. That's $5.6 million per nameplate MW, but more importantly, that's $23.38 million per adjusted MW based on actual production! That's 2x as expensive as Vogtle!
- It regularly incinerates birds mid-flight, called "streamers" (~3,500 per year)
- It occupies 4,000 acres of land

There was some chatter about Brightsource going bankrupt (like the company that owned Crescent Dunes) but I believe they were able to get a government loan to help them cover the cost of the government financing to stay out of bankruptcy? Last production data available for the facility is from 2020, but the company still seems active on LinkedIn.

 

[tyman]

That's a nice theory, but the increases in so called "renewables" has not demonstrably reduced the use of fossil fuel power production. It has not even kept up with the growth in demand.

We also have started scaling it up for large scale production/usage. We're at a nice starting point but it's time to start increasing things.

 

[OVERKILL]

We also have started scaling it up for large scale production/usage. We're at a nice starting point but it's time to start increasing things.

If only it were that simple. Unfortunately, VRE does not have a history of eliminating fossil fuels. At best, they are, at present, a fuel saving device that displaces some fossil generation, setting a floor on emissions.

Only large-scale deployment of hydro and nuclear have ever been effective at eliminating, or almost eliminating, fossil generation.
The Messmer Plan in France for example:

The Ontario coal phaseout:

Of course that in no way means that these sources won't have a role in reducing FF's from power generation, but the current agenda-driven madness is certainly not helping, as grid operators are forced to deal with government-mandated penetration targets for specific sources, which cause all kinds of stability and reliability issues and is hard on the equipment required to back it up, adding considerable expense.

 

[tyman]

If only it were that simple. Unfortunately, VRE does not have a history of eliminating fossil fuels. At best, they are, at present, a fuel saving device that displaces some fossil generation, setting a floor on emissions.

Only large-scale deployment of hydro and nuclear have ever been effective at eliminating, or almost eliminating, fossil generation.
The Messmer Plan in France for example:

The Ontario coal phaseout:
View attachment 130259

Of course that in no way means that these sources won't have a role in reducing FF's from power generation, but the current agenda-driven madness is certainly not helping, as grid operators are forced to deal with government-mandated penetration targets for specific sources, which cause all kinds of stability and reliability issues and is hard on the equipment required to back it up, adding considerable expense.

To wit, we’ve already discussed that solar wouldn’t do everything but it will help supplement into the grid.

 

[OVERKILL]

To wit, we’ve already discussed that solar wouldn’t do everything but it will help supplement into the grid.

Yes, though my view on what role solar serves is likely different from the current politically advocated/accepted one. I see its role as one that reduces or eliminates the function of peakers.

 

[wpod]

Plenty to gain when solar is charging an EV in the parking lot.

How many cars can be recharged?

 

[javacontour]

Just noticed this yesterday on Master Card parking lot.

You go there as well, eh?
They have several monitors inside showing how much they are making from their solar panels.

 

[Shannow]

Hmmm....like the thread and the conversation. Unfortunately, can't go much further than I have in observing day to day.

 

[ripcord]

We also have started scaling it up for large scale production/usage. We're at a nice starting point but it's time to start increasing things.

Right. Spending trillions to produce billions worth of power. I look forward to spending triple for my power bill.

Edit: Apologies for excessive snark after reading my post after the fact.

 

[PimTac]

This idea sounds good at first glance but a lot of things will have to change to accommodate the solar panels. Lighting for one. Security cameras for another.

 

[ripcord]

These kinds of threads always bring to mind the famous H. L. Mencken quote:

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

How many cars can be recharged?

Does it matter? What if it's used to recharge storage or offset some energy consumption used to power the building?

https://investors.mgmresorts.com/in...me-Power-To-13-Las-Vegas-Resorts/default.aspx

 

[tyman]

Right. Spending trillions to produce billions worth of power. I look forward to spending triple for my power bill.

Edit: Apologies for excessive snark after reading my post after the fact.

Or we can keep spending cheap oil and fossil fuels and keep adding to killing the environment and ourselves.

 

[dlundblad]

Mostly because the environment groups don't want the desert destroyed. Also those of us that live here don't want to look at panels all day.

The big solar farm south of Vegas has been an environmental disaster. From baked birds to 1000's of tortious killed by moving them.

Wind and solar are terrible for the wildlife. For whatever reason, it’s overlooked.

 

[4WD]

Batteries have a short lifespan, have a tendency to catch fire and are extremely expensive. They are not a great "partner" for solar, despite what people are led to believe. Pumped Hydro is a much better storage medium, but clearly has other limitations.

Yup - I’m saying it until blue in the face - fixed batteries are just plain stupid when the battle over surface extracted resources looms … only mobile machines need batteries …
The other reason I hate the concept of all electric homes and eliminating NG - no, just make better use of it …

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Yup - I’m saying it until blue in the face - fixed batteries are just plain stupid when the battle over surface extracted resources looms … only mobile machines need batteries …
The other reason I hate the concept of all electric homes and eliminating NG - no, just make better use of it …

You don't think repurposing EV batteries for residential/commercial storage would be a great way to extend their service life until technology for recycling has been fleshed out? 10 yrs in an EV and then another 5-10 as storage.

 

[KrisZ]

You don't think repurposing EV batteries for residential/commercial storage would be a great way to extend their service life until technology for recycling has been fleshed out? 10 yrs in an EV and then another 510 as storage.

Batteries have a finite amount of charge/discharge cycles. You are way over simplifying things in your head so that it can make sense.

Besides, have you seen a car battery pack? It’s not exactly ready to be hanged on a wall somewhere. They can have coolant in them, they are oddly shaped, connections are proprietary, they all have different working voltages etc.
So even if their lifecycle was not at the end after 10 years of automotive use, it’s not easy to repurpose them.

It’s funny that stuff like this always comes down to “just imagine” when some hard facts are presented. It’s always some pie in the sky just to push one view, but total disregard of economics and options that are readily available now.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Batteries have a finite amount of charge/discharge cycles. You are way over simplifying things in your head so that it can make sense.

Besides, have you seen a car battery pack? It’s not exactly ready to be hanged on a wall somewhere. They can have coolant in them, they are oddly shaped, connections are proprietary, they all have different working voltages etc.
So even if their lifecycle was not at the end after 10 years of automotive use, it’s not easy to repurpose them.

It’s funny that stuff like this always comes down to “just imagine” when some hard facts are presented. It’s always some pie in the sky just to push one view, but total disregard of economics and options that are readily available now.

Nobody is suggesting you should be able to just pull the battery out of an EV and hanging it on the wall. Perhaps it's only the individual cells themselves which are repurposed. This should be easier to accomplish if automakers stick with a standardized form factor.

It's not as pie in the sky as you wish it to be.

Talking economics is another thing. I'll be happy to talk about economics. We can start with the trillions of BORROWED dollars spent since the Eisenhower Administration fighting and/or supporting pariah regimes located in oil producing countries so the rest of the world can drive around on cheap fuel. Other than the dead and disabled we have yet to experience the financial costs of this economic policy.

 

[4WD]

Nobody is suggesting you should be able to just pull the battery out of an EV and hanging it on the wall. Perhaps it's only the individual cells themselves which are repurposed. This should be easier to accomplish if automakers stick with a standardized form factor.

It's not as pie in the sky as you wish it to be.

Talking economics is another thing. I'll be happy to talk about economics. We can start with the trillions of BORROWED dollars spent since the Eisenhower Administration fighting and/or supporting pariah regimes located in oil producing countries so the rest of the world can drive around on cheap fuel. Other than the dead and disabled we have yet to experience the financial costs of this economic policy.

You’ll be fighting over dug-up minerals and China is already winning …

 

[OVERKILL]

You don't think repurposing EV batteries for residential/commercial storage would be a great way to extend their service life until technology for recycling has been fleshed out? 10 yrs in an EV and then another 5-10 as storage.

In practice, that's not going to work. While it sounds fantastic on paper, the limited amount of cycles left, high rate of failure, myriad different form factors and sizes of cell and waste of resourced used to implement this scheme will make it untenable. We'd be far better served focusing on recycling these cells and reducing the mining for new ones.