Over thinking engine oil - MPG related

[ahoier]

Originally Posted By: EchoThat
I saw a segment on a show a few years ago, no idea what show it was, about just this. A company in California does re-programming on your car's computer to allow the vehicle to work to its potential, instead of functioning at the everyday mediocre performance level that is passed off as top of the line. I haven't heard anythging about anyone doing this since. I imagine that it still goes on, however. There is definitely a market for it.
That's very interesting. Especially, coming out of California...?

Where the likes of AAP, AZ can not "scan codes for free" like they can anywhere else in the U.S......?

 

[exranger06]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Artem
All Fords minus the Turbo models spec 20 grade for 2011.


The BOSS 302 spec's 5w50, as does the GT500.


And the 4.0 SOHC V6, scheduled to be discontinued at the end of this year, still specs 5w30.

 

[D189379]

Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: D189379


I think you're being a bit dramatic. I don't think engine longevity is suffering (in any measurable amount) from the switch to 20 weight oils. Has there been some sort of epidemic of 20W spec'd Honda and Toyota engines that are failing prematurely that I haven't heard about? If I'm wrong I'd love to know about this. It sounds very dangerous.


You're talking about engines which spec a 20 grade from the factory. I'm talking about using a 20 grade in an engine original designed to run on a 30 grade.

I never once mentioned complete premature engine failure while using thin oils in even in engines originally asking for thicker juice. I said increased wear! there's a difference.


I'm talking about engines that were originally designed and spec'd for 30 grade for years, then suddenly changed to 20 weight with no redesign whatsoever. Nothings blowing up (or wearing out) as much as you want to believe that.

I'm running a 20 weight in my truck right now that is specd for 30 weight, I'll let you know when it blows up/ wears out.

 

[D189379]

Originally Posted By: D189379
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: D189379


I think you're being a bit dramatic. I don't think engine longevity is suffering (in any measurable amount) from the switch to 20 weight oils. Has there been some sort of epidemic of 20W spec'd Honda and Toyota engines that are failing prematurely that I haven't heard about? If I'm wrong I'd love to know about this. It sounds very dangerous.


You're talking about engines which spec a 20 grade from the factory. I'm talking about using a 20 grade in an engine original designed to run on a 30 grade.

I never once mentioned complete premature engine failure while using thin oils in even in engines originally asking for thicker juice. I said increased wear! there's a difference.


I'm talking about engines that were originally designed and spec'd for 30 grade for years, then suddenly changed to 20 weight with no redesign whatsoever. (How about the same engine that was "designed" for a 40wt because it's in a different part of the world, but runs on 20wt here?) Nothings blowing up (or wearing out) as much as you want to believe that. Honestly the way oil weights are so widely variable, how do you come to such a conclusion?

I'm running a 20 weight in my truck right now that is specd for 30 weight, I'll let you know when it blows up/ wears out.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Artem
All Fords minus the Turbo models spec 20 grade for 2011.


The BOSS 302 spec's 5w50, as does the GT500.


And the 4.0 SOHC V6, scheduled to be discontinued at the end of this year, still specs 5w30.


Yes IIRC it has something to do with the oil pump which is the reason Ford didn't back spec the engine.

 

[biodiesel]

Originally Posted By: TFB1

Ford has now back spec'd many engines saying the 5w-20 oils are OK, so much for the better machining on the newer engines... As far as going to a lighter oil in a higher mileage engine, that no doubt now has some wear and larger clearances than orig, I don't see it as a good idea...


Is there a database online that covers which models from manufacturers have been back spec'd? How was this information from Ford announced?

I'm curious to know if Honda has back spec'd my 1991 Civic Si which originally called for 5w30.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: ahoier
Originally Posted By: EchoThat
I saw a segment on a show a few years ago, no idea what show it was, about just this. A company in California does re-programming on your car's computer to allow the vehicle to work to its potential, instead of functioning at the everyday mediocre performance level that is passed off as top of the line. I haven't heard anything about anyone doing this since. I imagine that it still goes on, however. There is definitely a market for it.
That's very interesting. Especially, coming out of California...?

Where the likes of AAP, AZ can not "scan codes for free" like they can anywhere else in the U.S......?

There are Hi-Performance shops in probably every state that can retune your car's computer system for more performance... They do electronically what us hot rodders did in the old days by adjusting iginition timing, changing carburetor jets, etc... They could also tune for slightly more mileage but that requires leaning the air/fuel ratio and increases emissions, so that is why the mfgr's can't tune for more mileage... Stating that today's vehicles are under tuned so they can give a boost in fuel economy next year is malarkey...

My Marauder's computer was re-tuned after the supercharger install, was required to prevent the air/fuel ratio from being lean under boost, which would equal melted pistons...

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
One more thing: how come the 18 wheelers are still using 15W40 and not 5W20?


That's an easy one: their engines are designed for oils which have 3.5 min HTHS viscosity. There's a reason they're called heavy duty engines. They work hard all the time. And if you have ever looked at bearings that come out of an engine with 600,000 miles on it, you would understand why thin oil is just not used.


Exactly my point. Note that Subaru and Toyota make statements in their manuals that heavy duty use of the cars requires heavier oils (subaru mentions up to 20W50).

On the other hand, 99% of non-commercial drivers in NA use their high powered and over-sized cars in mostly very light duty manner (one person commuting, 10 miles on average or Hwy driving at mild speeds of 70-80 MPH). This is why 5W20 is a good match here in NA.

And no, sitting in traffic with AC on doesn't count as heavy duty!

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
Stating that today's vehicles are under tuned so they can give a boost in fuel economy next year is malarkey...



Oh Really? Please explain to me how a 1.0L, 3 Cylinder engine in a 1,800 pound Smart car for Two is rated @ 33 city, 41 highway (By US standards)

when a 1.8L 4 Cylinder engine in a 2,900 pound Honda Civic with 2 extra doors, which seats 5 people has a 30/38 rating???

When I first went to look at the Smart car, i expected to see 50-60mpg AT A MINIMUM for such a TINY car with a 1.0L 3 cylinder engine but boy was i shocked to see 30mpg... I bought a HUGE by comparison Civic.

^That's just one extreme example but you mean to tell me that there isn't something fishy here???

If i strip 1,000 pounds from my Civic (all else equal) i bet i can hit 50mpg city with ease!

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Artem


My 07 Civic Si is tuned for Max Power in 1st-5th gear but the air/fuel ratio in 6th is extremely leaned out to maximize gas mileage on the highway. Works VERY well with the scan gauge reading close to 40 MPG @ 65-70mph with cruise control on, on a car rated for 29 MPG highway.

It's funny. The car makes more power then stock and get better gas mileage at the same time. It's amazing.



Here is an interesting post showing Honda's oil recommendations for all their cars dating back to 1997.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2251311&page=1

2006 and later Civic SI's specify 5w30.
The S2000 was solid with 10w30 throughout its production life.
Everything else has gone 20-weight.

Redline 5w30 is maybe a heavier oil than you need in the Si for now. Perhaps you could mix it down with RL 0w20 until it becomes a light 30-weight, but you would not see any practical increase in fuel economy. You'd see more fuel economy improvement if you would lay off the 8600rpm blasts while driving on the street.

But if you're planning to upgrade for more power, the 5w30 would be just fine. If you're going to spend a boat-load of money to make more power, why worry about 1% in fuel economy?

 

[Artem]

Who's worried about fuel economy? I love the fact that my Si makes decent power for an N/A 2.0L engine while still delivering 30+MPG when i drive like a normal human being while driving to church.

I choose Redline for its robustness as i hope it will not shear into a 20 grade after only 3,000 miles.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Stating that today's vehicles are under tuned so they can give a boost in fuel economy next year is malarkey...



Oh Really? Please explain to me how a 1.0L, 3 Cylinder engine in a 1,800 pound Smart car for Two is rated @ 33 city, 41 highway (By US standards)

when a 1.8L 4 Cylinder engine in a 2,900 pound Honda Civic with 2 extra doors, which seats 5 people has a 30/38 rating???

When I first went to look at the Smart car, i expected to see 50-60mpg AT A MINIMUM for such a TINY car with a 1.0L 3 cylinder engine but boy was i shocked to see 30mpg... I bought a HUGE by comparison Civic.

^That's just one extreme example but you mean to tell me that there isn't something fishy here???

If i strip 1,000 pounds from my Civic (all else equal) i bet i can hit 50mpg city with ease!


Because the smart car is a P-O-S???

Actually it's main issue is that it's no doubt under powered at highway speeds(a 12.8sec 60mph is pathetic)so it's tiny 1L engine is continually struggling to move the car especially at higher speeds... I don't think it's has variable valve timing, so there is room for improvement in that area, but still it's no doubt "tuned" to be as efficient as possible considering the design... Anyway it's more for city operation and not really considered a highway vehicle...

In reality you are comparing apples to oranges with the Honda, but I agree your car at 1000 lbs less would clobber the smart car...

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Artem


My 07 Civic Si is tuned for Max Power in 1st-5th gear but the air/fuel ratio in 6th is extremely leaned out to maximize gas mileage on the highway. Works VERY well with the scan gauge reading close to 40 MPG @ 65-70mph with cruise control on, on a car rated for 29 MPG highway.

It's funny. The car makes more power then stock and get better gas mileage at the same time. It's amazing.


Here is an interesting post showing Honda's oil recommendations for all their cars dating back to 1997.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2251311&page=1

2006 and later Civic SI's specify 5w30.


It's actually interesting to see how Civic Si went from 5W20 to 5W30 in 2006. People driving those harder than regular civics?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Artem
for an N/A 2.0L engine

I didn't think the Si engine was made in N/A?
Originally Posted By: Artem

I choose Redline for its robustness as i hope it will not shear into a 20 grade after only 3,000 miles.

Talk about a belt and suspenders complex!
The VII free RL 5W-30 has no chance of shearing down even into a heavy 30wt let alone a 20wt.

 

[addyguy]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Artem
for an N/A 2.0L engine

I didn't think the Si engine was made in N/A?
Originally Posted By: Artem

I choose Redline for its robustness as i hope it will not shear into a 20 grade after only 3,000 miles.

Talk about a belt and suspenders complex!
The VII free RL 5W-30 has no chance of shearing down even into a heavy 30wt let alone a 20wt.


N/A = 'Naturally Aspirated' in this context.

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted By: Artem
...............When I first went to look at the Smart car, i expected to see 50-60mpg AT A MINIMUM for such a TINY car with a 1.0L 3 cylinder engine but boy was i shocked to see 30mpg... I bought a HUGE by comparison Civic.........


Similarly, doesn't the Honda Fit have surprisingly low fuel mileage, given its weight and engine output?

 

[Artem]

Yea the Fit with its 1.5L and 28 city / 35 highway mileage is pathetic. It just goes to show that cars are detuned from the factory. The Fit should be getting MUCH better MPGs then the civic seeing how its over 300 pound lighter and has a smaller engine

it doesn't make sense to me!

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Stating that today's vehicles are under tuned so they can give a boost in fuel economy next year is malarkey...



Oh Really? Please explain to me how a 1.0L, 3 Cylinder engine in a 1,800 pound Smart car for Two is rated @ 33 city, 41 highway (By US standards)

when a 1.8L 4 Cylinder engine in a 2,900 pound Honda Civic with 2 extra doors, which seats 5 people has a 30/38 rating???

When I first went to look at the Smart car, i expected to see 50-60mpg AT A MINIMUM for such a TINY car with a 1.0L 3 cylinder engine but boy was i shocked to see 30mpg... I bought a HUGE by comparison Civic.

^That's just one extreme example but you mean to tell me that there isn't something fishy here???

If i strip 1,000 pounds from my Civic (all else equal) i bet i can hit 50mpg city with ease!


Because the smart car is a P-O-S???

Actually it's main issue is that it's no doubt under powered at highway speeds(a 12.8sec 60mph is pathetic)so it's tiny 1L engine is continually struggling to move the car especially at higher speeds... I don't think it's has variable valve timing, so there is room for improvement in that area, but still it's no doubt "tuned" to be as efficient as possible considering the design... Anyway it's more for city operation and not really considered a highway vehicle...

In reality you are comparing apples to oranges with the Honda, but I agree your car at 1000 lbs less would clobber the smart car...


Which is exactly my point. It was just a few years ago that the stupid thing hit the market and its engine design was as terrible as engines from the 90s.

Don't even get my started on the transmission in those things.

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Artem


My 07 Civic Si is tuned for Max Power in 1st-5th gear but the air/fuel ratio in 6th is extremely leaned out to maximize gas mileage on the highway. Works VERY well with the scan gauge reading close to 40 MPG @ 65-70mph with cruise control on, on a car rated for 29 MPG highway.

It's funny. The car makes more power then stock and get better gas mileage at the same time. It's amazing.


Here is an interesting post showing Honda's oil recommendations for all their cars dating back to 1997.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2251311&page=1

2006 and later Civic SI's specify 5w30.


It's actually interesting to see how Civic Si went from 5W20 to 5W30 in 2006. People driving those harder than regular civics?


I've been raping mine for 4 years and 94,000 miles now. Bouncing off the rev limiter daily.

A lot of members on the Civic forum seem to drive them in a similar manner, pushing the cars Hard.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Artem
for an N/A 2.0L engine

I didn't think the Si engine was made in N/A?
Originally Posted By: Artem

I choose Redline for its robustness as i hope it will not shear into a 20 grade after only 3,000 miles.

Talk about a belt and suspenders complex!
The VII free RL 5W-30 has no chance of shearing down even into a heavy 30wt let alone a 20wt.


We will see when the UOA gets here.

 

[CATERHAM]

There are plenty of UOA of RL's 5W-30.
I'm not sure what you're expecting to see?

 

[needsducktape]

I couldn't get anything less than 40mpgs with my 1996 Del Sol -Yes, it only had 2 seats but still, for a 15 year old car one might think the industry -could- be farther along in the MPG department.

Side Note:
I bought it last year as a barn find (70,000 original miles and shined like new) the best $2900 I've ever spent. Even had 13inch rims... Replacing the tires set me back a whopping $49 each at wal mart. What a bargain.