Out with the Audi & In with a Pilot

I checked new Pilot last year, and boy is it underpowered here at altitude.
Good news is current one is big departure from interior design of third generation, especially second one that we have.

related questions for you guys living at higher altitude. How does the turbo work in the vehicles you tried?

Let me explain what I mean by example:
- a NA engine operated where the air pressure is 12 psi loses about 1/5th of it's power (let's assume 15 psi at sea level for this back of napkin napkin math).
- a turbo engine that adds 15 psi boost at sea level, does it still add 15 psi in the above situation (so loses 1/10th of power) or does it add 18 psi at altitude and make about the same power as at sea level?

I don't think I've ever gone above 6000ft and that was with a diesel. I don't remember it losing any power, but it could've just ran a bit less lean than it would have at sea level.
 
related questions for you guys living at higher altitude. How does the turbo work in the vehicles you tried?

Let me explain what I mean by example:
- a NA engine operated where the air pressure is 12 psi loses about 1/5th of it's power (let's assume 15 psi at sea level for this back of napkin napkin math).
- a turbo engine that adds 15 psi boost at sea level, does it still add 15 psi in the above situation (so loses 1/10th of power) or does it add 18 psi at altitude and make about the same power as at sea level?

I don't think I've ever gone above 6000ft and that was with a diesel. I don't remember it losing any power, but it could've just ran a bit less lean than it would have at sea level.
I bet you somewhere someone calculated exact drop in power. But for N/A engines rule of thumb is 3% of loss. Your butt dyno, depending on vehicle, might or might not notice difference (your cooling system on other hand will, for sure). For example, my 328 with some 270hp on crank and some 225-230lb-ft, it is still quick, it is quick at 10,000ft. But it is 3600lbs, stick shift. My 2009 Pilot? Oh boy. That is slug fest once you cross 8,000ft which is pretty much anywhere in CO once you hit mountains. Sequoia with 5.7? I can feel it, but there is enough power to still leisurely push it.

Now, Tiguan doesn’t struggle whatsoever. Only thing I can feel on “butt dyno” is bit longer turbo lag. My Atlas was similar and proven far more powerful at 11,000ft than Atlas with 3.6 VR6 and less weight. 2.0T had 235hp and 258lb-ft, 3.6 VR6 is rated 276hp and 266lb-ft at sea level. At 11,000ft? I obliterated VR6 with roof box, three bikes on bike rack and full trunk of bags, grill, cooler etc.
Now, how much pressure turbo makes compared to sea level at 14.7psi atmospheric pressure? Don’t know. But, unless vehicle has really good power to weight ratio like my BMW (and they are known to have much lower losses through drivetrain) turbo is way to go at altitude.
6,000ft? It is still ok. My house is at 6,800ft. But, once you hit mountains, 6-8-% grade, 8-12,000ft (in some cases) it becomes struggle. Not to mention that at that attitude cooling engine is far less efficient than at any ambient temperature, regardless how high, and now you are 30-35% down on power, pushing high rpms to go over pass, and cooling system is now working overtime. Turbo? You can do all that, but between 2-3,500rs, instead 5-6,500rpms.
 
I bet you somewhere someone calculated exact drop in power. But for N/A engines rule of thumb is 3% of loss. Your butt dyno, depending on vehicle, might or might not notice difference (your cooling system on other hand will, for sure). For example, my 328 with some 270hp on crank and some 225-230lb-ft, it is still quick, it is quick at 10,000ft. But it is 3600lbs, stick shift. My 2009 Pilot? Oh boy. That is slug fest once you cross 8,000ft which is pretty much anywhere in CO once you hit mountains. Sequoia with 5.7? I can feel it, but there is enough power to still leisurely push it.

Now, Tiguan doesn’t struggle whatsoever. Only thing I can feel on “butt dyno” is bit longer turbo lag. My Atlas was similar and proven far more powerful at 11,000ft than Atlas with 3.6 VR6 and less weight. 2.0T had 235hp and 258lb-ft, 3.6 VR6 is rated 276hp and 266lb-ft at sea level. At 11,000ft? I obliterated VR6 with roof box, three bikes on bike rack and full trunk of bags, grill, cooler etc.
Now, how much pressure turbo makes compared to sea level at 14.7psi atmospheric pressure? Don’t know. But, unless vehicle has really good power to weight ratio like my BMW (and they are known to have much lower losses through drivetrain) turbo is way to go at altitude.
6,000ft? It is still ok. My house is at 6,800ft. But, once you hit mountains, 6-8-% grade, 8-12,000ft (in some cases) it becomes struggle. Not to mention that at that attitude cooling engine is far less efficient than at any ambient temperature, regardless how high, and now you are 30-35% down on power, pushing high rpms to go over pass, and cooling system is now working overtime. Turbo? You can do all that, but between 2-3,500rs, instead 5-6,500rpms.

Thanks, it does seem the turbo engines gor for a set absolute pressure then (that also explains the bigger turbo lag, it's emulating a NA engine at low rpm), essentially making the same power as down low (if the intake doesn't get too hot). The major issue would then be intercooler not sufficient, and possibly overdriving the turbo if tuned to close to the edge on sea level. That last being a possible issue for home builds.
 
Thanks, it does seem the turbo engines gor for a set absolute pressure then (that also explains the bigger turbo lag, it's emulating a NA engine at low rpm), essentially making the same power as down low (if the intake doesn't get too hot). The major issue would then be intercooler not sufficient, and possibly overdriving the turbo if tuned to close to the edge on sea level. That last being a possible issue for home builds.
I think it goes for full or as close as possible. There is still drop in power due to air density. But far less than naturally aspirated engine.
 
related questions for you guys living at higher altitude. How does the turbo work in the vehicles you tried?

Let me explain what I mean by example:
- a NA engine operated where the air pressure is 12 psi loses about 1/5th of it's power (let's assume 15 psi at sea level for this back of napkin napkin math).
- a turbo engine that adds 15 psi boost at sea level, does it still add 15 psi in the above situation (so loses 1/10th of power) or does it add 18 psi at altitude and make about the same power as at sea level?

I don't think I've ever gone above 6000ft and that was with a diesel. I don't remember it losing any power, but it could've just ran a bit less lean than it would have at sea level.
It depends on how the engine is tuned.
https://www.garrettmotion.com/news/...at-elevation-counteracting-lower-air-density/
 
Yes the turbo will attempt to target absolute pressure. Within the performance curve of the turbo and rest of the system. When me and some friends used to run our street cars at Bandimere, we calculated about a 30% loss for the NA cars, and about 7% for my turbo. All three cars should be close on paper: 2015 Camaro SS, 2009 370Z (slightly modified), and my BMW M235. My BMW smoked those two by about 1.5 seconds. Density Altitude is the actual metric you need to calculate horsepower change. We would get to 9000+ ft density altitude at Bandimere, while there are some tracks in the Midwest that would be below sea level at -1000 ft da! Denver is brutal.

One friend had a ATS-V (twin turbo V6) and pulled up next to a Lambo Guillardo. He asked the driver if he wanted to run 'em. The guy asked "is it turbo?" My friend said yes and the guy replied "nah I'm good." LOL
 
Yes the turbo will attempt to target absolute pressure. Within the performance curve of the turbo and rest of the system. When me and some friends used to run our street cars at Bandimere, we calculated about a 30% loss for the NA cars, and about 7% for my turbo. All three cars should be close on paper: 2015 Camaro SS, 2009 370Z (slightly modified), and my BMW M235. My BMW smoked those two by about 1.5 seconds. Density Altitude is the actual metric you need to calculate horsepower change. We would get to 9000+ ft density altitude at Bandimere, while there are some tracks in the Midwest that would be below sea level at -1000 ft da! Denver is brutal.

One friend had a ATS-V (twin turbo V6) and pulled up next to a Lambo Guillardo. He asked the driver if he wanted to run 'em. The guy asked "is it turbo?" My friend said yes and the guy replied "nah I'm good." LOL
HPR is good place to witness this and cooling problems. I have seen people from TX and AZ with tuned E90 335 N54’s improved cooling, usually running double oil coolers, just to have CEL thrown due to oil temperature 4-5th lap into session, being in disbelief bcs. cooling systems are designed for heat there.
At the same time I had hard time keeping up with anything turbo if it is July or August. Density altitude would be sometime 8000+ft. Non tuned MK VI GTI with 200hp? Ain’t no way I can pass it on straight regardless that on paper I pack some extra 70hp.
 
I checked new Pilot last year, and boy is it underpowered here at altitude.
Good news is current one is big departure from interior design of third generation, especially second one that we have.
I love Colorado, but agree a turbocharged engine would be much more practical there than NA.

I'd never considered a Pilot before, so never looked at one. All I know is the Elite trim level has the features my wife and I want.
 
I love Colorado, but agree a turbocharged engine would be much more practical there than NA.

I'd never considered a Pilot before, so never looked at one. All I know is the Elite trim level has the features my wife and I want.
I personally think they hit the jackpot pot with Trail Sport. They are here like mushrooms after rain. But it packs 400lbs more than last generation and no extra power. IMO, it would be better if they at least offered 2.0T as an option.
 
I think its a garage disaster waiting to happen with those clearances.. but otherwise a decent choice.
anyway you can make a "bumper" on the shelves where the car would hit first? (probably bumper height?)
 
I think its a garage disaster waiting to happen with those clearances.. but otherwise a decent choice.
anyway you can make a "bumper" on the shelves where the car would hit first? (probably bumper height?)
When we got the Audi, I installed this garage wall protector foam on the metal shelves next to the driver's door. It has one side with strong, double-sticky tape. I had some left over, so just installed a piece on the lower shelf's horizontal support. There's 2.5" of clearance between the foam and where the car would impact. :cautious:

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European cars. Something I will never experience except vicariously through others.

Good move getting out of the luxury Euro money pit. Honda pilot will be a major relief long term.
 
European cars. Something I will never experience except vicariously through others.

Good move getting out of the luxury Euro money pit. Honda pilot will be a major relief long term.
So, how do you know it is a money pit if you never own it? Two biggest money pits of some 40+ cars I had were the Toyota Sienna and the Land Cruiser Prado, and it is not even close. And 2009 Pilot is not some shiny example of reliability.
 
So, how do you know it is a money pit...
For me, I based my decision on the fact that two different Audi dealers wouldn't even quote me an extended warranty price while my car is still under manufacturer warranty. The best "deal" I found from third party aftermarket warranty providers was $13,000. I mentally budgeted $13,000 for future repairs, but that wouldn't cover the cost to replace an engine.
 
For me, I based my decision on the fact that two different Audi dealers wouldn't even quote me an extended warranty price while my car is still under manufacturer warranty. The best "deal" I found from third party aftermarket warranty providers was $13,000. I mentally budgeted $13,000 for future repairs, but that wouldn't cover the cost to replace an engine.
Omg.
 
So, how do you know it is a money pit if you never own it? Two biggest money pits of some 40+ cars I had were the Toyota Sienna and the Land Cruiser Prado, and it is not even close. And 2009 Pilot is not some shiny example of reliability.
You counter my anecdote with an anecdote of your own.

I anticipate data won’t change your mind, but here it is anyways.

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You counter my anecdote with an anecdote of your own.

I anticipate data won’t change your mind, but here it is anyways.

View attachment 280074
Anecdote?
I own a BMW made in 2011 that I use daily, take my kids to school, me to office, take me to ski once or twice a week or some 40-60 days a year, I take it to the track, and since I have had it (bought used with 84,000 miles), it has had a TPMS module failure, which was $300. Mind you, vehicle now has 155,000 miles and some 5-6000mls are track miles.
I have 2011 Tiguan that I bought in 2013 and only had HVAC resistor failure so far in last 12 years or 90,000mls which was $5 for part, and one coil failure.
Before that I had 5 BMW's, 7 VW's, Lancia's, Alfa Romeo's, Peogeot's, Opel's, several Skoda's and zastava 101 and Yugo 55 (that is besides co-owning business in Europe that has delivery fleet of VW's, FIAT's etc).
Now, I also had a Toyota Sienna that in 3 years of ownership somehow racked up around $6000 of needed work at 86,000 miles, but I ditched the vehicle to a local Toyota so people like you and OP can buy it, because, you know, reliability.
I have LC Prado diesel.
I currently have also Sequoia with 5.7 that is our road trip vehicle bcs. kids. This one is still too short in my hands to know where things are going.

SO, what experience did you have?
 
Anecdote?
I own a BMW made in 2011 that I use daily, take my kids to school, me to office, take me to ski once or twice a week or some 40-60 days a year, I take it to the track, and since I have had it (bought used with 84,000 miles), it has had a TPMS module failure, which was $300. Mind you, vehicle now has 155,000 miles and some 5-6000mls are track miles.
I have 2011 Tiguan that I bought in 2013 and only had HVAC resistor failure so far in last 12 years or 90,000mls which was $5 for part, and one coil failure.
Before that I had 5 BMW's, 7 VW's, Lancia's, Alfa Romeo's, Peogeot's, Opel's, several Skoda's and zastava 101 and Yugo 55 (that is besides co-owning business in Europe that has delivery fleet of VW's, FIAT's etc).
Now, I also had a Toyota Sienna that in 3 years of ownership somehow racked up around $6000 of needed work at 86,000 miles, but I ditched the vehicle to a local Toyota so people like you and OP can buy it, because, you know, reliability.
I have LC Prado diesel.
I currently have also Sequoia with 5.7 that is our road trip vehicle bcs. kids. This one is still too short in my hands to know where things are going.

SO, what experience did you have?
This is such a fallacious argument.

Do you know how many people use reasoning like this to destructive effect?

“you don’t have the right to talk about X because you are not X, have not experienced X, or do not identify with X”

If you really wanted to make a solid argument, you would use data or studies suggesting luxury Euro cars not money pits.
 
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