Origins of the 'Right to Bear Arms'

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http://federalistblog.us/2008/07/dc_v_heller_was_scalia_honest_with_the_facts.html

.....Scalia explains the “Second Amendment is naturally divided into two parts: its prefatory clause and its operative clause. The former does not limit the latter grammatically, but rather announces a purpose.” Additionally, Scalia adds this prefatory clause acts as a “clarifying function,” and “does not limit or expand the scope of the operative clause.”

One must wonder why, if the prefatory clause acts as a “clarifying function,” the court is adjudicating a District of Columbia gun regulation that does not directly cause any lawfully organized State militia to be disarmed. The prefatory clause remember, speaks only of a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State and not of any private right for individuals to privately keep or use firearms for any purpose.

According to the majority, the answer is because “Nowhere else in the Constitution does a ‘right’ attributed to ‘the people’ refer to anything other than an individual right.” Thus, the majority thinks reading the Second Amendment as “protecting only the right to ‘keep and bear Arms’ in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as ‘the people.’” Therefore, the majority begins with the “strong presumption that the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans.”

Would this mean no one could have ever been compelled to bear arms in the service of the militia because the right can only be exercised individually? Obviously, that prefatory clause is not so clarifying after all.

......The majority goes on to insult readers reading comprehension by quoting such legal scholar’s as J. Pomeroy, Story, Cooley, and others, in supporting their view that bearing arms was not understood to be connected to service in the militia. Scalia quotes Thomas Cooley as saying the “alternative to a standing army is ‘a well-regulated militia’; but this cannot exist unless the people are trained to bearing arms.”

Question: Was keeping a handgun for personal self-defense ever considered part of a training regime in bearing arms under a well-regulated militia?

These expressions Scalia quotes from legal scholars attest only to the long held principle of keeping and bearing arms found under the Second Amendment as those arms normally used by a well-regulated militia, and for which are necessary and suitable to a free people to aid them in resisting oppression, usurpation, repel invasion - not those arms used for purposes of committing bank robbery, shooting rabbits or home intruders.

Scalia quotes from J. Pomeroy, but omits his conclusion of the object behind the Second Amendment: “The object of this clause is to secure a well-armed militia.”
 
If "the people" in the 2nd Amendment doesn't mean the general populace of the country, then it doesn't apply in the Preamble, 1st, and 4th Amendments either.
You have yet to deal with this.

AGAIN under the 10th Amendment gun control is illegal at the Federal level as there is no enumerated power to do so.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed....to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms" (Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87)

And plenty of other quotes that show the TRUE meaning of what the 2nd Amendment is intended. Scalia's interpretation is dead on.





And the Huffington Post???
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The idea of adding a bill of rights to the Constitution was originally controversial. Alexander Hamilton, in Federalist No. 84, argued against a "Bill of Rights," asserting that ratification of the Constitution did not mean the American people were surrendering their rights, and therefore that protections were unnecessary: "Here, in strictness, the people surrender nothing, and as they retain every thing, they have no need of particular reservations." Critics pointed out that earlier political documents had protected specific rights, but Hamilton argued that the Constitution was inherently different:

Bills of rights are in their origin, stipulations between kings and their subjects, abridgments of prerogative in favor of privilege, reservations of rights not surrendered to the prince. Such was "Magna Charta", obtained by the Barons, swords in hand, from King John.[6]

Finally, Hamilton expressed the fear that protecting specific rights might imply that any unmentioned rights would not be protected:

I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and in the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers which are not granted; and on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?[7]

Essentially, Hamilton and other Federalists believed in the British system of common law which did not define or quantify natural rights. They believed that adding a Bill of Rights to the Constitution would limit their rights to those listed in the Constitution. This is the primary reason the Ninth Amendment was included.


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To some degree, the Bill of Rights (and the American Revolution) incorporated the ideas of John Locke, who argued in his 1689 work Two Treatises of Government that civil society was created for the protection of property (Latin proprius, or that which is one's own, meaning "life, liberty, and estate"). Locke also advanced the notion that each individual is free and equal in the state of nature. Locke expounded on the idea of natural rights that are inherent to all individuals, a concept Madison mentioned in his speech presenting the Bill of Rights to the 1st Congress. Locke's argument for protecting economic rights against government may have been most salient to the framers of the Amendments; quartering and cruel punishments were not the current abuses of 1791


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On June 8, 1789, Madison submitted his proposal to Congress. In his speech to Congress on that day, Madison said:

For while we feel all these inducements to go into a revisal of the constitution, we must feel for the constitution itself, and make that revisal a moderate one. I should be unwilling to see a door opened for a re-consideration of the whole structure of the government, for a re-consideration of the principles and the substance of the powers given; because I doubt, if such a door was opened, if we should be very likely to stop at that point which would be safe to the government itself: But I do wish to see a door opened to consider, so far as to incorporate those provisions for the security of rights, against which I believe no serious objection has been made by any class of our constituents.[29]

Prior to listing his proposals for a number of constitutional amendments, Madison acknowledged a major reason for some of the discontent with the Constitution as written:

I believe that the great mass of the people who opposed [the Constitution], disliked it because it did not contain effectual provision against encroachments on particular rights, and those safeguards which they have been long accustomed to have interposed between them and the magistrate who exercised the sovereign power: nor ought we to consider them safe, while a great number of our fellow citizens think these securities necessary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

One of the major obstacles to the passage of the Constitution was the fact that the original body did not include the protection of specific rights. The Bill was added to appease these people.

The Bill of Rights AFFIRMS the individual rights of the people, it does not grant them.

Why are you SO adamant about removing your own personal rights?
 
"One of the major obstacles to the passage of the Constitution was the fact that the original body did not include the protection of specific rights. The Bill was added to appease these people. The Bill of Rights AFFIRMS the individual rights of the people, it does not grant them."

What rights and what people ? The right to slavery, eating cats, killing Indians, and carrying grenades ? If the Bill of Rights only affirms rights then by what law are any rights placed above any other rights ? By what law are any other laws passed that infringe upon any other possible right that any other people would place above all others ?

Again you seek to establish an implied right as being absolute, 'shall not be infringed', but that implied right even when proposed as an explicit individual right was not chosen to be stated as such by the founders of the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. You also seek to imply that any weapon is covered by this implied right, when again laws on the explicit right of forming militias specifically stated military weapons that utilize a bayonet (some states had exceptions for outlying areas, and specified allowed weapons).

Madison borrowed heavily from Virginia law for the Constitution and Bill of Rights. See below for the Militia law passed by Virginia before the war. See below for the Virginia Bill of Rights where there is not even a statement on a right to bear arms, instead a statement that standing armies will be avoided and that a militia is the proper defense. See below for the statement about the militia in the Articles of Confederation; the individual right to bear arms is important that again it's not even mentioned. See below for Madison's proposal for the Bill of Rights, where 'bearing arms' is explicitely stated as being military service.



http://www.constitution.org/mil/virg_rev.htm

As tensions mounted between Great Britain and her colonies, many Virginians began to discuss and debate questions concerning Virginia’s ability to wage war and what the posture of defense should be. In March 1775, the Second Virginia Convention was held in Richmond to avoid interference by British forces. Attending were 120 delegates from all parts of the colony. During the fourth day of the convention, Patrick Henry put forward a resolution--"That a well regulated Militia, composed of Gentlemen and Yeomen, is the natural Strength, and only Security, of a free Government." It was during his speech in support of his resolution that Henry stated: "I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!" After his resolution was passed by a close vote, a committee was appointed to prepare a "Plan for the embodying, arming, and disciplining such a number of men as may be sufficient for that purpose."

The plan proposed and accepted by the convention put into effect the Militia Law that had been passed in 1738 (which was very similar to the 1757 Militia Law) and recommended to all counties that they form "one or more Volunteer Companies of Infantry and Troops of Horse." Each company of infantry was to consist of sixty-eight men, four officers, four noncommissioned officers, and a drummer. Each man was to have a rifle or firelock, a bayonet, a cartridge box, a tomahawk, one pound of powder, four pounds of ball, be clothed in a hunting shirt, and learn the 1764 Military Exercise for Infantry.



http://www.constitution.org/bor/vir_bor.htm

Virginia Bill of Rights June 12, 1776

13. That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided, as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
 
http://www.usconstitution.net/articles.html#Article6

The Articles of Confederation

Agreed to by Congress November 15, 1777; ratified and in force, March 1, 1781.

No vessel of war shall be kept up in time of peace by any State, except such number only, as shall be deemed necessary by the United States in Congress assembled, for the defense of such State, or its trade; nor shall any body of forces be kept up by any State in time of peace, except such number only, as in the judgement of the United States in Congress assembled, shall be deemed requisite to garrison the forts necessary for the defense of such State; but every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage.



http://www.usconstitution.net/madisonbor.html

....Madison, himself, in his election campaign against James Monroe for the new U.S. House, vowed to fight for a bill of rights. He informed the Congress on May 4, 1789, that he intended to introduce the topic formally on May 25; but on May 4, the Congress was embroiled in a lengthy debate on import duties, and when May 25 rolled around, the debate continued. He rose again on June 8 to introduce the subject, but he was blocked, with other members noting that the Congress had more pressing matters to attend to. Stifled, Madison rose again to say why he thought the time was right for the introduction of his list of amendments - and then presented them to the Congress anyway.

Eventually, Madison, and those on his side, won the debate to create a Bill of Rights, with several of Madison's concepts, if not his exact wording, appearing in the twelve articles of amendment that were sent to the states.

The text here presented can be found in The Annals of Congress, House of Representatives, First Congress, 1st Session, pp 448-460.

The amendments which have occurred to me, proper to be recommended by Congress to the State Legislatures, are these:

...The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.
 
ALL that you have posted bolsters MY position. All of these pre-Constitutional laws are talking about the regular populace being expected to be armed with military ready weapons!
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There is absolutely NOTHING about limiting arms.

Please deal with the 10th Amendment issue that I have raised.

Please explain why "the people" in the 2nd Amendment are different from the people in other parts of the Constitution.

Why are you SO adamant about removing your own personal rights?
 
"ALL that you have posted bolsters MY position. All of these pre-Constitutional laws are talking about the regular populace being expected to be armed with military ready weapons! There is absolutely NOTHING about limiting arms."

If review of current law is to be based upon what the founding fathers intended then one needs to know what laws were being referenced when the 2nd was being drafted. You acknowledge that it was the regulated militia, and as has been posted we know the role of the regulated militia in the US as defined by the militia laws that have been posted.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

The Tenth Amendment, which makes explicit the idea that the federal government is limited only to the powers granted in the Constitution is generally recognized to be a truism. In United States v. Sprague (1931) the Supreme Court noted that the amendment "added nothing to the [Constitution] as originally ratified."

Interpretations of the amendment can be divided into two camps. The first interpretation, as held by the Tenth Amendment Center, the Libertarian and Constitution Parties, and a few Republicans including Ron Paul and Jeff Flake, is that the Constitution does not grant the United States any power that it does not expressly mention. This has been used as the basis for such court cases as Gonzales v. Raich, and for arguments in favor of repealing a large number of Federal laws, abolishing the Federal Reserve, and drastically slashing the Federal budget by 50% or more. It is also why amendments were necessary for the abolition of slavery and the prohibition of alcohol - without said amendments, Congress did not have the authority to do those things.

The contrary opinion is that the Constitution grants Congress the authority to do more or less anything that is not explicitly prohibited by the first eight amendments.

As suggested above, the Supreme Court rarely declares laws unconstitutional for violating the Tenth Amendment. In the modern era, the Court has only done so where the federal government compels the states to enforce federal statutes.

In United States v. Lopez 514 U.S. 549 (1995), a federal law mandating a "gun-free zone" on and around public school campuses was struck down because, the Supreme Court ruled, there was no clause in the Constitution authorizing it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-free_school_zone

Congress re-enacted the law in the GFSZ Act of 1996, following the Supreme Court's ruling, correcting the technical defects identified by the Court by adding section 3(A), which requires the prosecutor to use the word "gun" and "interstate commerce" in a sentence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Handgun_Violence_Prevention_Act

Court challenge
In 1997 one provision of interim Brady Law was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in Printz v. United States on 10th amendment grounds. The provision compelled state and local law enforcement officials to perform the background checks mandated by federal law. The Court determined that this provision violated both the concept of federalism and that of the unitary executive. However, state and local law enforcement officials were free to conduct the check if they so chose and many continued to do so. This issue became moot when NICS came online.
 
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You acknowledge that it was the regulated militia, and as has been posted we know the role of the regulated militia in the US as defined by the militia laws that have been posted.

Yes, they EXPECTED people to be armed.
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The 10th Amendment is very clear:
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The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


NO WHERE does the Constitution grant the power to regulate the private ownership of arms and therefore ANY law that does is unconstitutional. Not just by the 2nd Amendment, but by the 10th as well.

Please tell me why the Founders would grant government powers to oppress people in the Bill of Rights!
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"Yes, they EXPECTED people to be armed."

They expected people to be members of a regulated militia, that's why it is mentioned. We have laws governing the role of the regulated militia.

Again, there were specific proposals to specify a right to bear arms for use in other than a regulated milita, but they were rejected by the founding fathers as 'bearing arms' had a specific martial meaning. We have firearms laws, the current federal laws being constitutional per a conservative judge of the Supreme Court in DC vs Heller. In fact the judge suggested that a remedy for DC would be for DC to issue a liscense to Heller so that he may have a firearm in his home. This suggests that a national firearms registry would be acceptable per conservative members of the Court.
 
Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
This suggests that a national firearms registry would be acceptable per conservative members of the Court.



Not really .

This suggests that registering firearms in DC would be acceptable per conservative members of the Court.
 
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Again, there were specific proposals to specify a right to bear arms for use in other than a regulated milita, but they were rejected by the founding fathers as 'bearing arms' had a specific martial meaning.

Please tell me why the Founders would grant government powers to oppress people in the Bill of Rights!
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest

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Again, there were specific proposals to specify a right to bear arms for use in other than a regulated milita, but they were rejected by the founding fathers as 'bearing arms' had a specific martial meaning.

Please tell me why the Founders would grant government powers to oppress people in the Bill of Rights!


......[crickets]....................................................................................[/crickets]..........

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