Opinions on Synthetic Oil?

[wtd]

According to some manufacturers, an OCI of 10,000 miles does not require a full synthetic. My 2014 Mustang GT has an OCI of 10,000 using an oil that meets it's WSS-M2C945-A spec and some conventional oils meet that spec. The car comes from the factory with the Motorcraft 5W-20 blend.

I would bet that a lot of the cars out there that recommend a 10,000 mile OCI, don't require a full synthetic to do so.

For piece of mind though a lot of people will run a synthetic instead.

Wayne

 

[gregk24]

Todays API SN conventional oils are top notch, and are probably better than yester-years synthetics. As long as you are following your manufacturers recommended OCI and it does not require synthetic then dino will do the job just fine. Synthetic does have its places, high heat, and very cold conditions is where synthetic really shines, as well as extended OCI's. Having said that, I only run synthetic in my car, its only $10 more every 3 or so months and that $10 is worth the peace of mind I have. The TGMO I am running has excellent VI which aids in getting the oil where it needs to asap, and with the type of driving I do that is important. As long as your car does not require synthetic then rest assured todays conventionals will give your cars engine more than adequate protection.

 

[lubedude13]

$14 per quart for amsoil isn't true more like $10 a quart and if you're changing oil 10k or less then YES it is probably overkill. That's where amsoil signature is marketed for those that go longer than 10k. If you are going 5-7.5k intervals about any will be fine but my recommendations for over the counter oils would be Pennzoil or kendall

 

[rrguy]

You can simply google independent studies & see synthetics are better & which ones out perform the others. The main difference in them is the additive package. Whether looking for cold flow, long drain intervals or best preotection, you might swap brands.

Agreed most application a petroleum or semi syn are still good oils. You don't hear about the oil breaking down like in the 80's Manybe the final drive or trans where the fluid is in there 50,000 vs 3,000 is where I feel its worth the extra cost?

In mn it gets cold so I like the syn for that reason.
If you are driving a $45,000 machine maybe a few extra $ a qt isn't a bad investment? If you get an loose filter or plug, oil leak & don't catch it A synthetic might save your motor?

 

[jrtribology]

I'm not naming brand names but regardless of what you use there is no substitute for continueous maintainence and cleaning. If if engine keeps burning oil don't keep topping off for thousands and thousands of miles without eventually changing it. It's important to keep oil up to it's proper fill level but it still needs to be changed along with it's filter at regular intervals.

 

[CarbonSteel]

This question is likely to garner as many opinions as there are BITOG members and when passion is involved objectivity likely goes out the window. I have ran 4 different oils (counting the FF) in my FX4 (5.4L) and have UOA'ed all of them. The UOAs are listed towards the bottom of the post and the raw data is about as objective as it can be (leaving it up to the reader to decide). I also performed a few calculations using various oils, oil filters, and OCIs that show the differences between ST, MS5K, M1, M1EP, and SSO running various OCIs and filters. All of these are calculated based upon full use of the oil life and the length of the oil life is based upon what I believe they may be in my FX4 (they may not apply to other vehicles). Given my math is correct, there are some differences in cost, but provided the oil is used for the full life (and not dumped early), the cost differences are not so far apart as one may think. Thoughts?

Oil Costs:

Conventional:
ST (SuperTech) = $2.59/QT x 7 = $18.16 (bought in 5QT jugs @ WM)
MS5K (Mobil Super 5000) = $3.19/QT x 7 = $22.33 (bought in 5QT jugs @ WM)

Synthetic:
M1 (Mobil 1) = $4.39/QT x 7 = $30.73 (bought in 5QT jugs @ WM)
M1EP (Mobil 1 Extended Performance) = $5.39/QT x 7 = $37.73 (bought in 5QT jugs @ WM)
SSO (Amsoil Signature Series) = $6.90/QT x 7 = $48.33 (bought in 4QT jugs @ Amsoil PC)

Filter Costs:

Motorcraft (MC) FL-820s = $2.30 (AAP + code)
Fram Ultra (FU) = $7.53 (AAP + code)
Amsoil EO = $13.15 (Amsoil PC)

When we apply the miles to the cost, it becomes thus:


0.001705 per mile @ 12,000 miles per OC at a cost of $20.46 (ST + MC)

0.002052 per mile @ 12,000 miles per OC at a cost of $24.63 (MS5K + MC)

0.002117 per mile @ 25,000 miles per OC at a cost of $52.93 (SSO+ 2 MCs)

0.002117 per mile @ 20,000 miles per OC at a cost of $42.33 (M1EP + 2 MCs)

0.002202 per mile @ 15,000 miles per OC at a cost of $33.03 (M1 + MC)

0.002263 per mile @ 20,000 miles per OC at a cost of $45.26 (M1EP + FU)

0.002355 per mile @ 15,000 miles per OC at a cost of $35.33 (M1 + 2 MCs)

0.002459 per mile @ 25,000 miles per OC at a cost of $61.48 (SSO + EO)

0.002551 per mile @ 15,000 miles per OC at a cost of $38.26 (M1 + FU)

0.002647 per mile @ 20,000 miles per OC at a cost of $52.93 (SSO + 2 MCs)

0.002793 per mile @ 20,000 miles per OC at a cost of $55.86 (SSO + FU)

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Given my math is correct, there are some differences in cost, but provided the oil is used for the full life (and not dumped early), the cost differences are not so far apart as one may think. Thoughts?

That's just materials, right? What about the cost of labor? Even if you do your own changes, your time has value. Unless you're just doing it for the fun of it, which is perfectly fine, too.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Given my math is correct, there are some differences in cost, but provided the oil is used for the full life (and not dumped early), the cost differences are not so far apart as one may think. Thoughts?

That's just materials, right? What about the cost of labor? Even if you do your own changes, your time has value. Unless you're just doing it for the fun of it, which is perfectly fine, too.

Quite right; it was only the cost of materials. Time is the only thing that we cannot replace and as I age it is becoming more and more valuable. I will remain at 10K+ for the OCIs on my FX4 and will likely experiment with SSO in the near future to see how long it will last. It was fun to change the oil in vehicles years ago and though I am not going to pay anyone else to do it, I can think of better things to do with my time and given that (at least to myself) I have proven that not using the oil for the full life gains nothing there is no reason to return to a 5-7.5K OCI no matter what oil I use.

 

[BHopkins]

Another advantage to synthetic oils can be fuel economy. An increasingly common trend in newer automobile engines is the use of 0W-xx synthetic motor oils. These 0W-xx motor oils offer great engine protection, while also helping increase fuel economy. The 0W-xx motor oils are so effective, that they are even being used as factory fills in many exotic European models.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no dino oils offered in this new, and fast growing segment of engine lubrication. If you buy a newer car in the next few years, chances are ever increasing that it will be spec'd out to run on a 0W-xx motor oil, and you will have a choice to make. Either stay with the OEM recommendations, and use a synthetic, or ignore the OEM and use a dino oil.

 

[BISCUT]

Originally Posted By: Hyde244
For comparing the costs of conventional and synthetic, the best rational I have found is to do a simple price-per-mile comparison of how much you spend per mile of an OCI.

For example, if you are planning to drive 8,000 miles with a $22 synthetic, you would be spending .275 cents per mile. When compared to a $17 conventional driven over 5,000 miles (.34 cents per mile), the synthetic will be the cheaper oil.

Simply put: Synthetics offer an advantage of longer oil change intervals and lower temperature start-up protection. They have also been found to be helpful in protection for variable cam timing and turbo charging. This is in part why Motorcraft and Dexos1 certification are exclusively semi-synthetic and synthetic oils - Ford and GM see advantages to using synthetics over conventional.



What he said. If your changing oil under 7k then dino is your buddy. IMHO 7k and further OCI syn is my friend. Others here go 10k on dino and have great posted UOA's. A lot is also engine specific and yor driving habit specific.

 

[chad8]

I am amazed how realistic the responses have been on this topic.
This site has changed drastically in a short time since the days of a few fanatics with synthetic boutique oils and dire warnings of sludge and engine failures, which never materialized.
Even the OCOD talk has died down.
I think the quality of all major brand oils right now is excellent.

I tend to use synthetic in my cars that do not burn oil and cars like my daughters where I can not change oil frequently because she lives away from home.
I own 8 cars currently and it becomes a struggle to keep up with them all.
I believe in 10000+ mile oil changes for synthetics and 5000+ for conventional.
Nothing scientific , just 40 years of educated mechanical inclination.
Cars that I buy that have sludge get very different treatment .
Cars that burn oil seem to burn more with synthetic in them.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CC268
Why would you run any oil for 10,000+ miles? Even if it is synthetic it seems to me that that oil would be very dirty? Does synthetic stay cleaner for longer?

The issue for many of us here is to get our money out of the oil. Sometimes, conventional is the most economical choice. Other times, it's synthetic. Of course, that assumes that either is acceptable for use in the vehicle in question.

When I ran the cab fleet, the vehicles got conventional for 6,000 mile intervals (back when 3,000 was recommended). There were no problems. In that case, I might have gone longer on synthetic, but I did like to get under a vehicle regularly and make sure things were in order, and an oil change was as good an excuse as any.

When I had the old Audi, synthetic had its place to avoid winter viscosity switches. And, I had leftovers, so that's what's in the G now.

The user tig1 here goes 10,000 miles on M1 each and every time. He's been doing it for ages without any issues, either. Engines and oils have evolved, so I guess we need to keep up with the times.

 

[CC268]

Thanks for all the info and opinions guys!

Here is a paragraph that I pulled from an oil geek on another forum (not exactly sure what he does but I know he does lab tests on oil...)

Let me know what you think:

I doubt you have any idea just how big that question is. A lot of folks claim synthetics offers more protection. Protection from what? Any Ford certified motor oil is double length tested at 302F, that's 16 hours. Your engine won't last that long at those temps. So extreme heat is not a factor. Cold startup even for some synthetics can be an issue and a conventional can be formulated with additives just for cold startups so the cold isn't really a factor. And most folks don't have -25F startups but if you do, you'd be wise to look at the CCS rating of an oil, not the label or brand. But what are we really taking about when we use the term "synthetic"? If the definition is a man made or man modified product that does not appear in nature, then we have just opened a lot of doors. At one time it pretty much meant the PAO based oils, a gas to liquid technology, but they have become expensive and rare these days. Using the above definition means that any crude stocks that are severely hydrocracked are synthetics. That includes the common Gp II oils, the Gp II+ and obviously the Gp IIIs. It just eliminates the Gp I solvent refined base oils. A number of oil companies are using this to call their oils "full synthetic" when in fact they are just barely a blend of years past. You're even using recycled oil these days as part of the "synthetic" base oil and there's nothing wrong with it either. So what is the big deal? Synthetic base oils adds stability to any motor oil. This allows the car maker to recommend longer drain intervals- that's about it. No synthetic base oil has more lubricity than a conventional oil and any formulation that gives a synthetic a lubricity advantage can be formulated in a conventional base oil with the exact same results. Any fuel mileage increases in using a synthetic base oil can be identically duplicated with an exact viscosity match conventional. Years back the synthetics were thinner on the Kinematic scale and gave better fuel mileage. That advantage is gone these days as conventional oils have improved dramatically. But car makers use the synthetics to make their products more maintenance free by offering the stability of a synthetic. Otherwise, synthetics have been a money maker for the oil industry who spend billions in advertising dollars to milk the unsuspecting of their money. Want the best for your engine? Read and understand the owners manual....but then, that's too easy and doesn't cost near enough.

Is there more to it than this? Yeah, but I don't see the need of an explanation you probably wouldn't understand anyway. The blends are the best of all of the base oils and not all synthetic base oils are user friendly, like the PAOs which do zero for the seals and doesn't mix with the additive packages. More chemistry is needed just to force it to work. Like with most things "keep it simple, stupid" will win every time.

I thought this was interesting and really matched up with the research I had done so far. However, I can see how synthetics can be more cost effective depending on your OCI. The trend I have seen so far is...buy synthetic if it is cheaper for you in the long run.

 

[CC268]

To verify...the above is from a Petroleum Engineer in Texas...he has some extremely good insight into this stuff!

 

[Quattro Pete]

He paints with a fairly broad brush and goes too much into the whole true-fake synthetic discussion, which is somewhat irrelevant these days, but all in all, he's got it about right.

The one point I don't necessarily agree with is this:
Quote:
Cold startup even for some synthetics can be an issue and a conventional can be formulated with additives just for cold startups so the cold isn't really a factor. And most folks don't have -25F startups but if you do, you'd be wise to look at the CCS rating of an oil, not the label or brand.


He says that even conventional can be made to perform well in extreme cold, but when you do look at CCS and MRV specs of all the oils available on the market, the oils that excel there are actually synthetics and not conventional. Also, a conventional oil that is formulated just for cold startups is typically not that great at handling extreme heat. A synthetic can accomplish both in one single product.

Quote:
The trend I have seen so far is...buy synthetic if it is cheaper for you in the long run.

That's basically it, but also what your Petroleum Engineer friend wrote: "Want the best for your engine? Read and understand the owners manual".

In the case of my cars, the owners manuals call for oils meeting specific and rather stringent MFG specs. There are no mineral oils currently available that meet such specs.

 

[CC268]

Yea this was a very brief paragraph...he has written countless articles on another site and really goes into detail. To be honest, most people still don't listen to him despite his expertise on the subject. Considering this IS his career and his area of expertise I do take his opinion quite seriously. I know he does a lot of lab testing on oils. Like I said...hard to really give out his full opinion on this stuff as it would probably be a 100 page report haha.

Nonetheless I appreciate all the opinions, I think I have a much better and well rounded opinion on the subject now haha

 

[CC268]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
He paints with a fairly broad brush and goes too much into the whole true-fake synthetic discussion, which is somewhat irrelevant these days, but all in all, he's got it about right.

The one point I don't necessarily agree with is this:
Quote:
Cold startup even for some synthetics can be an issue and a conventional can be formulated with additives just for cold startups so the cold isn't really a factor. And most folks don't have -25F startups but if you do, you'd be wise to look at the CCS rating of an oil, not the label or brand.


He says that even conventional can be made to perform well in extreme cold, but when you do look at CCS and MRV specs of all the oils available on the market, the oils that excel there are actually synthetics and not conventional. Also, a conventional oil that is formulated just for cold startups is typically not that great at handling extreme heat. A synthetic can accomplish both in one single product.

Quote:
The trend I have seen so far is...buy synthetic if it is cheaper for you in the long run.

That's basically it, but also what your Petroleum Engineer friend wrote: "Want the best for your engine? Read and understand the owners manual".

In the case of my cars, the owners manuals call for oils meeting specific and rather stringent MFG specs. There are no mineral oils currently available that meet such specs.


As I stated in the previous paragraph, many car manufacturers call for synthetic oils for the sole reason that it allows the user to do "less maintenance" on the car. Not that is really requires this certain oil and oil filter, etc...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CC268


As I stated in the previous paragraph, many car manufacturers call for synthetic oils for the sole reason that it allows the user to do "less maintenance" on the car. Not that is really requires this certain oil and oil filter, etc...


The spec's denoted by the Euro marques OEM testing go far beyond simply long lubricant life. There are a huge list of performance parameters oils like M1 0w-40 must meet to obtain the certifications they carry and currently those performance parameters are only met by synthetic oils.

That's what QP was driving at with his statement.

For many years GM has called for nothing more than your standard API approved conventional oil for use with their on-board OLM systems which have specified, under appropriate operating conditions, what many would certainly qualify as extended drain intervals.

 

[CC268]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CC268


As I stated in the previous paragraph, many car manufacturers call for synthetic oils for the sole reason that it allows the user to do "less maintenance" on the car. Not that is really requires this certain oil and oil filter, etc...


The spec's denoted by the Euro marques OEM testing go far beyond simply long lubricant life. There are a huge list of performance parameters oils like M1 0w-40 must meet to obtain the certifications they carry and currently those performance parameters are only met by synthetic oils.

That's what QP was driving at with his statement.

For many years GM has called for nothing more than your standard API approved conventional oil for use with their on-board OLM systems which have specified, under appropriate operating conditions, what many would certainly qualify as extended drain intervals.


Yes, I am sure I sort of exaggerated by saying that

 

[dlundblad]

Good to see another fellow engineering student. Welcome.

Here's my novel. This is my personal experience.

I ran Mobil 1 diesel oil in my Jeep's 4.0 for the last 50,000 miles. I considered myself to be biased towards synthetic. Better cold flow, added protection etc. Last year about this time it developed a small lifter tick while it was warming up. A guy here highly recommends the Pennzoil yellow bottle which has very high amounts of molybdenum. (Interesting stuff.. Google it.) My Jeep loves it. Very quiet. No more tick. And since the cheapest I could find the M1 was about $30 per gallon, I'm glad I no longer have to pay $58 for an oil change. I changed mine every 6000.. most would say to run it longer, but I enjoy changing my oil too much.

On the other hand, my dad used to drive about 150 miles per day for his old job. He had a Jetta TDI that required 10,000 mile oil change intervals. Synthetic paid off in that situation.

As you said, synthetic has its place depending on the situation. Or if you're like me and enjoy changing oil, just go with conventional. I'm going to stretch my current Pennzoil fill out to 4500 miles and get a used oil analysis.