One oil for multiple BMW's?

[edyvw]

Edge 0W40 was removed from the Canadian market. Edge 0W30 A3 is hard to find (e.g. if there's even a spot on the shelf for it, it's empty) and really pricey in my area ($19/L), and is why I switched to Edge 0W40 several years ago. The PDS for Edge 0W30 still seems to show API SL, so is it safe to presume this is the same "GC" which carried LL-01 for many years in the past until the LL test spec was revised in 2018?

API doesn’t have anything to do with European approvals.
Also, in N55 2018 revision is irrelevant. No 0W30/40 oil with HTHS above 3.5 can be now approved for LL01 or LL04.
I think you guys have Pennzoil or Motomaster 0W40 for good price? As long as it has MB229.5.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Although i have no scientific data i am almost sure that if oil is too thick the hazard for rod bearing failure increases.
You seldom hear rod bearing failures on all the modern engines running 0w20 even with high hp/per liter engines.

However all the bmw m engines running the thick 10w60 "racing" oils where some of the most rod bearing failure prone engines that where ever produced. While in theory they should almost be the least susceptible to this.

Few years ago i saw a thread comparing the bearing oil gap tolerances from a couple of famous performance engines like honda s2000 f20c, bmw m s65 etc...

Bmw M engines where by far the thightest of them all, this combined with being one of the few makes running 10w60 from the factory was apperantly recipe for disaster.

Honda f20c and k20a 9000rpm revving engines run 5w40 10w30 oils.

If i owned one of these bmw M engines i ran 0w40.

Back to the n55 bearing failures.
I would not run a 10w60 in it, however 5w40 should be perfectly doable, 5w30 would be ideal.
I can not comment on the sudden failures but also have not heard about them before.

 

[kschachn]

Although i have no scientific data i am almost sure that if oil is too thick the hazard for rod bearing failure increases.
You seldom hear rod bearing failures on all the modern engines running 0w20 even with high hp/per liter engines.

However all the bmw m engines running the thick 10w60 "racing" oils where some of the most rod bearing failure prone engines that where ever produced. While in theory they should almost be the least susceptible to this.

Few years ago i saw a thread comparing the bearing oil gap tolerances from a couple of famous performance engines like honda s2000 f20c, bmw m s65 etc...

Bmw M engines where by far the thightest of them all, this combined with being one of the few makes running 10w60 from the factory was apperantly recipe for disaster.

Honda f20c and k20a 9000rpm revving engines run 5w40 10w30 oils.

If i owned one of these bmw M engines i ran 0w40.

Back to the n55 bearing failures.
I would not run a 10w60 in it, however 5w40 should be perfectly doable, 5w30 would be ideal.
I can not comment on the sudden failures but also have not heard about them before.

That’s not possible. No API grade is going to cause damage. How could it? How big do you think oil molecules are? MOFT is what protects, not the other way around.

But on the other hand no oil is going to correct a material or design defect either, regardless of the grade. If you seldom hear of failures on certain engines it’s because they were designed properly. Your conclusion is based on a false premise here.

 

[930.engineering]

.
Taken with a grain of salt there's some truth in it. When a manufacturer specs
some exotic viscosity there's perhaps something wrong and there's some kind
of design flaw requiring thicker oil for compensation . . .
.

 

[edyvw]

Although i have no scientific data i am almost sure that if oil is too thick the hazard for rod bearing failure increases.
You seldom hear rod bearing failures on all the modern engines running 0w20 even with high hp/per liter engines.

However all the bmw m engines running the thick 10w60 "racing" oils where some of the most rod bearing failure prone engines that where ever produced. While in theory they should almost be the least susceptible to this.

Few years ago i saw a thread comparing the bearing oil gap tolerances from a couple of famous performance engines like honda s2000 f20c, bmw m s65 etc...

Bmw M engines where by far the thightest of them all, this combined with being one of the few makes running 10w60 from the factory was apperantly recipe for disaster.

Honda f20c and k20a 9000rpm revving engines run 5w40 10w30 oils.

If i owned one of these bmw M engines i ran 0w40.

Back to the n55 bearing failures.
I would not run a 10w60 in it, however 5w40 should be perfectly doable, 5w30 would be ideal.
I can not comment on the sudden failures but also have not heard about them before.

10W60 is band aid to issue.
E46 M3 does not have rod bearings issue after 2003. Why? Bcs. they used different bearings.
People tried 0W40 but it doesn’t work.
Best results in M3 was using Redline 5W50.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Yes offcourse the main fault lies in the tolerances beining too tight on these engines.

I build a high performance 320hp n/a honda k24 engine 2 years ago. I adjusted each rod bearing to the exact middle of hondas minimum to maximumum specs.

Useally tuners go with a little larger rod bearing gap than oem, however honda is one of the best in business enginebuilding wise so i maintained al their specs.

Later i read specs somewhere about the normal tolerance in the bmw m v8 v10. In honda terms it would be on the (too) tight side of the scale. (See pictures)

For building high performance n/a or boosted honda engines pushing the same or useally above the hp per liter ratio of the M engines its useally advise to not go on the tight side but stick from the middle to larger side.

Engines that where build to the absolute minimum spec also where more common to have rod bearing wear/failures.
Honda owners generally never use 10w60, 0w20 in oem ranging till around max 10w50 in high performance applications.

Honda minimum 0.032 to 0.066mm
Bmw 0.034mm

 

[Craig in Canada]

API doesn’t have anything to do with European approvals.

I know - My question is whether the product still showing API SL means it's the same old formulation as before when this community dubbed it "GC" as opposed to being an updated formula. "GC" had LL-01 until 2018.

Also, in N55 2018 revision is irrelevant. No 0W30/40 oil with HTHS above 3.5 can be now approved for LL01 or LL04.

Yes and no. Did N55 prompt updating the spec? Probably not. The Internet says it was the N20/B58. But - better oxidation performance is better oxidation performance. Something I haven't brought up yet is that one of the same rebuilders I was talking to mentioned that BMW observed wear issues in the Valvetronic system which should not be happening. Then there's the N52 cam ledge wear. Did these things have any part to play in the 2018 revision? Do we actually really know? I was also told that something with Castrol was found responsible for the upper engine wear issues (e.g. Valvetronic, not bearings) and was part of the factory switch away from Castrol. I took that with a grain of salt.

Back in the M50/52/54/62 engine days, we didn't come to accept rod bearings, cam bearings, and this Valvetronic/VANOS stuff failing as normal (except VANOS rubber seals, which folks like Beisan made seal kits for). We've become quite accustomed to stuff that never used to happen becoming almost common.

I think you guys have Pennzoil or Motomaster 0W40 for good price? As long as it has MB229.5.

Yes PP goes on sale for good prices, but the Euro LX 0W30 doesn't spec a single BMW approval or "recommended" BMW application and doesn't meet A3 (does show C2/C3). Euro L 5W30 is LL-04 at least. Last time around I did not elect to contradict TIS and go LL-04. TIS has been updated and it STILL says that LL-04 is not for use in NA with gasoline despite our sulphur regs being a lot tighter now. PP is on sale at CT right now - might go with a jug of Euro L.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Euro L 5W30 is LL-04 at least. Last time around I did not elect to contradict TIS and go LL-04. TIS has been updated and it STILL says that LL-04 is not for use in NA with gasoline despite our sulphur regs being a lot tighter now. PP is on sale at CT right now - might go with a jug of Euro L.

Something to think about. The Low-SAPS LL-17FE spec has been used in current I6/I4 engines in the US over the last couple of years. What am I sayin? I'm saying that BMW alreadly moved their fleet to Low-SAPs oils for the US market. Now I admit that the bearings are designed a little different on the B-series engines in that they're coated reduce wear from stop/start. Another thing is that TIS is internal to BMW and not meant for public distribution. IMO BMW just doesn't care enough about the N-Series engine family to make an official announcement for the US market. They no longer service these vehicles afterall.

As for valvetrain wear (cam ledge, valvetronic shaft) I think a lot of that was due in part to the 15k OCI.

https://bmwtechnician.com/2017/10/25/n55-intake-camshaft-bearings/comment-page-1/#comment-15603

 

[edyvw]

I know - My question is whether the product still showing API SL means it's the same old formulation as before when this community dubbed it "GC" as opposed to being an updated formula. "GC" had LL-01 until 2018.


Yes and no. Did N55 prompt updating the spec? Probably not. The Internet says it was the N20/B58. But - better oxidation performance is better oxidation performance. Something I haven't brought up yet is that one of the same rebuilders I was talking to mentioned that BMW observed wear issues in the Valvetronic system which should not be happening. Then there's the N52 cam ledge wear. Did these things have any part to play in the 2018 revision? Do we actually really know? I was also told that something with Castrol was found responsible for the upper engine wear issues (e.g. Valvetronic, not bearings) and was part of the factory switch away from Castrol. I took that with a grain of salt.

Back in the M50/52/54/62 engine days, we didn't come to accept rod bearings, cam bearings, and this Valvetronic/VANOS stuff failing as normal (except VANOS rubber seals, which folks like Beisan made seal kits for). We've become quite accustomed to stuff that never used to happen becoming almost common.


Yes PP goes on sale for good prices, but the Euro LX 0W30 doesn't spec a single BMW approval or "recommended" BMW application and doesn't meet A3 (does show C2/C3). Euro L 5W30 is LL-04 at least. Last time around I did not elect to contradict TIS and go LL-04. TIS has been updated and it STILL says that LL-04 is not for use in NA with gasoline despite our sulphur regs being a lot tighter now. PP is on sale at CT right now - might go with a jug of Euro L.

1. Again, it is API limits that make SL and the same goes for 5W30 Castrol or BMW TPT.
2. Castrol responsible for the upper wear issue? That is where whoever said that loses any credibility, even if they had some. Contracts are based on numerous things, mostly sponsorship and R&D. If Castrol was "responsible" it would not be LL01 approved. And why then BMW went back to Castrol in North America if oil is of such bad quality? If they dropped it, then went back? I bet those "experts" have an answer for that since they claimed it was dropped bcs. upper engine wear. Are those same who said "GTL is dry?" whatever that means.
3. All LL approvals since 2018 are tested on N20. Before they were tested on N52 engine. Yes, a higher oxidation limit is better, but that is done to increase OCI. Do you run 15,000km OCI? 20,000km? If not, irrelevant.
4. Rod bearings are not common. I have never seen failed rod bearing N55 in real life in a normal exploited engine. I have seen some on strictly track 135 and 335. There are those who fail in normal exploitation, but personally, I have seen N55's racking up 150,000 miles and more, but not yet those with failed bearings.

 

[edyvw]

Yes offcourse the main fault lies in the tolerances beining too tight on these engines.

I build a high performance 320hp n/a honda k24 engine 2 years ago. I adjusted each rod bearing to the exact middle of hondas minimum to maximumum specs.

Useally tuners go with a little larger rod bearing gap than oem, however honda is one of the best in business enginebuilding wise so i maintained al their specs.

Later i read specs somewhere about the normal tolerance in the bmw m v8 v10. In honda terms it would be on the (too) tight side of the scale. (See pictures)

For building high performance n/a or boosted honda engines pushing the same or useally above the hp per liter ratio of the M engines its useally advise to not go on the tight side but stick from the middle to larger side.

Engines that where build to the absolute minimum spec also where more common to have rod bearing wear/failures.
Honda owners generally never use 10w60, 0w20 in oem ranging till around max 10w50 in high performance applications.

Honda minimum 0.032 to 0.066mm
Bmw 0.034mm

And they resolved issue on E46 once they changed rod bearings but kept the same tolerances.
On any N55 (M2), S55, S58, it is not an issue. N55 kept the same rod bearing tolerances in M2 application (360hp) but utilizes different rod bearings and two oil pick-up lines and redesigned oil pan.

 

[Craig in Canada]

1. Again, it is API limits that make SL and the same goes for 5W30 Castrol or BMW TPT.

You keep focusing on the API part of the sentence. Focus on the *STILL* SL, meaning that's a clue that it's the same old stuff. If Edge 0W30 A3 is the same oil it was 10 years ago, then at least I know what I'm getting, and that it had LL-01 until 4 years ago, and probably lost it for reasons that don't matter to me. If it's been reformulated, and lost all BMW "recommended" applications, then I have no idea if it's suitable or not.

2. Castrol responsible for the upper wear issue? That is where whoever said that loses any credibility, even if they had some. Contracts are based on numerous things, mostly sponsorship and R&D. If Castrol was "responsible" it would not be LL01 approved. And why then BMW went back to Castrol in North America if oil is of such bad quality? If they dropped it, then went back? I bet those "experts" have an answer for that since they claimed it was dropped bcs. upper engine wear. Are those same who said "GTL is dry?" whatever that means.

I hear ya Big grain of salt.

4. Rod bearings are not common. I have never seen failed rod bearing N55 in real life in a normal exploited engine. I have seen some on strictly track 135 and 335. There are those who fail in normal exploitation, but personally, I have seen N55's racking up 150,000 miles and more, but not yet those with failed bearings.

Well, folks I "know" from my forums (not just random Internet posts) are disappearing with spun bearings and seized engines, almost exclusively in 2011s. In various areas of reddit, there's the "look! another 2011!". That counts as "common" to me compared to all the spun bearings I heard about when I had an M52 (none) and N52 (none). I agree the running fleet of N55s on the road is huge, and it's not like I drive past a stranded N55 on the road every time I go out.

Another thing I ponder is the modern design philosophy of low RPM, high cylinder pressure turbos. When I first drove an N55 automatic 11 years ago (when I had an M52) I immediately noticed that it was always in a state of what would have been lugging my M52, even driving up hills. I've read that this zone is where maximum thermal efficiency lies so the vehicles are programmed to run this way. Is low RPM, high load the best for the bearings and keeping them oiled? I bet not. And may be partially responsible for variable displacement oil pumps, along with being able to decrease parasitic loss when up to speed and cruising.

I don't lug mine as much as factory programming, so maybe I have that going for me too.

 

[dlundblad]

I’m guessing these are older. I would run any A3/B4 personally and not worry about specs.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I’m guessing these are older. I would run any A3/B4 personally and not worry about specs.

The OP has older N-series and the new B-series engine so specs do matter.

 

[dlundblad]

The OP has older N-series and the new B-series engine so specs do matter.

Then is there a 1 size fits all option without going thin on the older stiff?

 

[edyvw]

You keep focusing on the API part of the sentence. Focus on the *STILL* SL, meaning that's a clue that it's the same old stuff. If Edge 0W30 A3 is the same oil it was 10 years ago, then at least I know what I'm getting, and that it had LL-01 until 4 years ago, and probably lost it for reasons that don't matter to me. If it's been reformulated, and lost all BMW "recommended" applications, then I have no idea if it's suitable or not.

The reason why I am focusing on API is that it has to be SL bcs. ZInc level. It cannot be SN etc. as Zinc level is too high for XW30. Even if they come up with a new formulation right now, it will be SL if Zinc level stays the same.
The last update was I think in 2016. But, it is again irrelevant as long as it is MB229.5.

Well, folks I "know" from my forums (not just random Internet posts) are disappearing with spun bearings and seized engines, almost exclusively in 2011s. In various areas of reddit, there's the "look! another 2011!". That counts as "common" to me compared to all the spun bearings I heard about when I had an M52 (none) and N52 (none). I agree the running fleet of N55s on the road is huge, and it's not like I drive past a stranded N55 on the road every time I go out.

There will be more topics about spun bearings than about those that did not. People come to the internet to look for advice, solution, or just vent.
There is no doubt that there is an issue, but again, it is a combination of variables that contributes to it. IMO, it is bad maintenance practices that overtime spill the bucket.

 

[edyvw]

Then is there a 1 size fits all option without going thin on the older stiff?

Pennzoil Platinum Euro L.

 

[edyvw]

Then is there a 1 size fits all option without going thin on the older stiff?

Pennzoil Platinum Euro L.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Then is there a 1 size fits all option without going thin on the older stiff?

Yes there is. Any oil which has LL04 could be used in all three engines without a problem. Easiest to acquire would be Pennzoil Platinum Euro L 5w30.

The older certs have been updated (2018) and are still relevant today.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Something to think about. The Low-SAPS LL-17FE spec has been used in current I6/I4 engines in the US over the last couple of years

Great points, and nice blog link!

 

[edyvw]

Here is another Problematic N55. And this is second I have seen this week with the same cause of tge problems:
Faulty oil change and he’ll ever since.


https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=91645&share_tid=1431520&url=https://www.bimmerfest.com/index.php?threads/Faulty-oil-change-and-he’ll-ever-since..1431520/&share_type=t&link_source=app