On oil pump flow rates

[mph]

Holy restrictive filter, Patman!

Do I need to be thinking (expensive, hard-to-find) K&N, then? Or does something like a Bosch have a reasonable flow rate? I don't plan on any super-long change intervals; probably 8,000 miles or so, tops.

I have an oversized M1-105 waiting to be used, which is a pretty big filter. I'm not positive yet that it will fit.

 

[Patman]

I'm going to assume that because the Bosch and Mobil 1 use similar types of media but the Bosch filters 15 microns vs 10, that the Bosch will have a higher flow rate, but I can't say 100% for sure.

That's the tricky part, that none of these filter makers (other than Purolator and K&N) seem to want to give out their flow ratings. More and more consumers want this info though. It's time they stopped keeping us in the dark!

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
I'm going to assume that because the Bosch and Mobil 1 use similar types of media but the Bosch filters 15 microns vs 10, that the Bosch will have a higher flow rate, but I can't say 100% for sure.

That's the tricky part, that none of these filter makers (other than Purolator and K&N) seem to want to give out their flow ratings. More and more consumers want this info though. It's time they stopped keeping us in the dark!

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They're going to need to give us more than some flow rate #. We'd need to know the viscosity of the fluid, the pressure drop across the filter, and the bypass valve setting before it would be of much use.

That's also the what I wonder about the the oil pump output figures from above since those numbers will change with pressue and any changes in the fluid...

 

[Eiron]

Wait a minute guys, let's not get too carried away here. Patman, remember all those questions I was asking K&N, Mobil & Purolator back last October? The result was that K&N wouldn't actually say what their flow rate is for a specific filter. And all their website says is that their "solid construction allows for oil flow rates between 12-16 gpm." Down at the bottom of the page they say that their burst pressure is based on the HP-3001 filter, but they don't list any filters or pressures for their flow rating, even though this is one of their main selling points.

On the other hand, Purolator did give a specific flow rate of 11 gpm at 10 psi. And that was for their super-dinky PL10241! Don't you have the Purolator book? Does it list flow rates only, or pressures too? What's it list for the equivalent to the HP-3001? And how's that compare to the HP-3002 you use? Does it list PureOne filters also?

I agree that the manufacturers need to supply more info, but I feel K&N is more secretive than most. Since both the K&N & M1 filters are made at the same place & with vitually the same materials, I'm betting they flow about the same. Unfortunately, the techs for Mobil don't know, & the techs for K&N refuse to help. Purolator's the only one of the three with both the knowledge & the desire, so that's what I'll buy.

 

[Patman]

Greg, the Purolator catalog simply lists GPM with no other data saying how they get that number. It also doesn't say if that's for the PureONE or the Premium Plus, or if there is a difference between the two.

I'm not sure which filter the HP3001 cross references to, since the Purolator book doesn't list the K&Ns in there (or the M1s or Bosch Premiums for that matter)

I don't think the M1s and K&Ns flow the same, based on how Champion Labs has claimed that the Mobil 1 is designed more for high efficiency while the K&N is designed more for higher flow and more "sporting applications" as they like to say.

I'm as confused as the next guy here, believe me. Maybe I should just gut the inside of a filter and run that instead, that sucker would flow awesome!

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:

I'm not sure which filter the HP3001 cross references to, since the Purolator book doesn't list the K&Ns in there (or the M1s or Bosch Premiums for that matter)

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HP3001 = Purolator L30001 or PL30001 for the Pure-1.

 

[Patman]

I'll double check when I get home but I believe the 30001 has a flow rating of about 5GPM.

 

[satterfi]

mph

The figures you gave for oil pump flow rates are based on unrestricted flow.

There are a couple of different possibilities.

Since the bearings restrict flow, at some point the system pressure will increase to the pressure relief valve setting on the pump and any flow that can’t flow through the bearings will be dumped directly from the pump to the sump.

Or, the bearings allow full flow and maximum system pressure is never reached. Then you might need to be concerned about the oil filter going into bypass.

 

[Chris A]

I agree with satterfi. I don't believe you are pumping 45 quarts/min at 6,000 RPM.

On a similar note, look at fuel pump ratings. I have a fuel pump rated at 110 gallons/hour. I've driven for an hour and came nowhere near burning 110 gallons of fuel

 

[dragboat]

The old Air Cooled VW motors could pump near 100 quarts a minute yet hot oil pressure with Castrol Grand Prix 30 wt was 7 lbs at idle. They used two pressure relief valves in the 1600 case called the dual bypass case.They did not have a oil filter,only a oil strainer

Boats have a higher fuel demand than cars. I have used around 1.5 gallons in 8 seconds of petro,,or the last boat used 4.2 gallons of Methanol in 8 seconds, much more if 20 percent Nitromethane is added to the Methanol and the fuel pill is changed to compensate.

Hot V-8 street motor needs a high volume of fuel and the rule of thumb for a carbed motor is if you have 400hp you need a 80 gallon per hour pump,,to prevent high speed lean out that will tulip the exhaust valves and or kill the hardened exhaust seat inserts if the motor is at WOT long enough,a tough job for a street car, same for lake racers that are near race boats but not quite there,they need quite a bit more fuel than a car and 1/2 fuel lines from the tank to the carbs especially if they are blown motors in 25 ft boats thay are capable of burning mucho fuel at WOT in 5 minutes,some of these newer plus 540 inch street motors need 1/2 inch lines as well but thats another story.

[ January 09, 2003, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
I'll double check when I get home but I believe the 30001 has a flow rating of about 5GPM.

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I'm home now, and the catalog says 4 GPM.

 

[dickwells]

I just had an idea of how to tell when a bypass valve opens or closes. Get one of those little thermocouple readers and fasten the end wires to the filter with glue or a magnet. By choosing the proper spot and experimenting I bet you could see right away when the oil stopped or started circulating through the element (when it is all warmed up, of course)

 

[mph]

A recurring theme here is the flow rate of oil filters; it seems that the K&N is the high-flow champion at 12-16 gpm from what I've read here.

Having no idea what kind of flow rates my oil pump puts out, I looked it up in my trusty 1994 Civic del Sol factory service manual. Here's what it says:

D15B7 (1.5L SOHC) and D16Z6 (1.6L SOHC VTEC) engines:
45 quarts/min at 6,000 RPM

So my D16Z6 flows 13.5 gpm at its 7,200 redline. Assuming that the numbers for the K&N are correct, a K&N should basically never go into bypass.

At highway speeds, I'm usually turning 3,500-4,000 RPM, which is 6.5-7.5 gpm. I read in one of the threads here that a PureONE filter is rated at 7 gpm. Is that true of all models? I have a PL14459 on the car, and it seems like I could be bypassing at highway speeds.

For fun, let's look at the 160 hp engine:

B16A3 (DOHC VTEC) engine:
77 quarts/min at 7,800 RPM

That spec is at or near redline, so you're looking at over 19 gpm at redline! It's geared shorter than my car; if I'm turning 3,750 rpm, it's turning 4,390 rpm, based on the 5th gear and FD ratios. That's almost 11 gpm of oil at highway speeds!

Could someone clarify: If I have a 10 gpm filter, and the oil pump is pumping 12 gpm, does 10 gpm go through the filter medium and 2 gpm through the bypass valve, or does it all go through the bypass valve? Thanks!

 

[Patman]

Actually the smaller Purolator filters are rated at only 3 GPM! The one for my wife's Honda, which is the 14459 is only rated at 3 GPM. Even the large filter I used on my LT1 Firebird was only rated at 5 GPM.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Thought you might like to see this new post I have about: Topic: Oil Pumps, The hows and Whys

 

[satterfi]

quote:

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Originally posted by mph:


satterfi and Chris A: So you think the pump does not operate at its rtated volume/minute because there is a pressure relief valve on the pump? Is there a way to determine the actual volume/minute?

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No. The pump operates as you would expect. The higher the rpm, the more flow it produces. However, if the bearings don't allow that entire flow to pass through them then the system pressure will rise and the pressure relief valve opens sending excess flow back to the sump. Only the flow that goes to the bearings go through the filter.

 

[mph]

dickwells: You know, if you had one of those laptop engine management systems (for experimenting with fuel maps and so forth), you could really be slick. Connect the an oil pressure sender and the thermistor to two of the "extra" inputs on the system, and you'd have a log of engine RPM, oil filter temperature, oil pressure, and whatever else you want.

satterfi and Chris A: So you think the pump does not operate at its rtated volume/minute because there is a pressure relief valve on the pump? Is there a way to determine the actual volume/minute?