Interesting to note Phelps' odd physical make up. I did not know that.
Good for him! He's using his body to what it's well suited for.
Good for him! He's using his body to what it's well suited for.
Olypian With No Feet - Oscar Pistorius
- Thread starter mechtech2
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Originally Posted By: andrewg
Once again.....those specific prosthetic devices have no relation to performance...
Prove it. Fake teeth and fake boobs can provide a weight advantage.
Yes, I'm taking these examples to the extreme, only to illustrate that the moment you exclude one type of prosthetic, a door will be open to exclude all sorts of others. Where does it stop?
Once again.....those specific prosthetic devices have no relation to performance...
Prove it. Fake teeth and fake boobs can provide a weight advantage.
Yes, I'm taking these examples to the extreme, only to illustrate that the moment you exclude one type of prosthetic, a door will be open to exclude all sorts of others. Where does it stop?
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Once again.....those specific prosthetic devices have no relation to performance...
Prove it. Fake teeth and fake boobs can provide a weight advantage.
Yes, I'm taking these examples to the extreme, only to illustrate that the moment you exclude one type of prosthetic, a door will be open to exclude all sorts of others. Where does it stop?
Your point lacks common sense and credibility. Equating that false teeth is in any way an athletic advantage....and then asking me to 'prove it' that it is not.....well, I have no need to and neither would any other person with a sound ability to deduce. Your question of 'where does it stop' should be directed at your apparent summation that you should not exclude those from competition that have artificial limbs.
It all matters not a spit in the ocean to me anyway....why? Because people such as yourself, well meaning but without an ability to exercise common sense, have all but ruined the once great Olympic Games with frivolity, political correctness, and politically left of center ideals.
Once again, to ease the rabid out there....it's just my opinion.
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Once again.....those specific prosthetic devices have no relation to performance...
Prove it. Fake teeth and fake boobs can provide a weight advantage.
Yes, I'm taking these examples to the extreme, only to illustrate that the moment you exclude one type of prosthetic, a door will be open to exclude all sorts of others. Where does it stop?
Your point lacks common sense and credibility. Equating that false teeth is in any way an athletic advantage....and then asking me to 'prove it' that it is not.....well, I have no need to and neither would any other person with a sound ability to deduce. Your question of 'where does it stop' should be directed at your apparent summation that you should not exclude those from competition that have artificial limbs.
It all matters not a spit in the ocean to me anyway....why? Because people such as yourself, well meaning but without an ability to exercise common sense, have all but ruined the once great Olympic Games with frivolity, political correctness, and politically left of center ideals.
Once again, to ease the rabid out there....it's just my opinion.
Quattro Pete specifically disclaimed his own statements - there is no need to castigate him and act superior.
His obvious point was valid, and he himself pointed out that the examples were extreme.
His obvious point was valid, and he himself pointed out that the examples were extreme.
Originally Posted By: andrewg
It all matters not a spit in the ocean to me anyway....why? Because people such as yourself, well meaning but without an ability to exercise common sense, have all but ruined the once great Olympic Games with frivolity, political correctness, and politically left of center ideals.
Once again, to ease the rabid out there....it's just my opinion.
You're WAY off base blaming this on "political correctness" and the "political left". That just suits your own bias to view everything with which you disagree as the fault of "those liberals".
Quite the opposite, this is capitalism at its finest...and worst. This is about one thing: money. Pistorius is one of the most high-profile athletes and he's a very average sprinter. No one outside of his home country would know his name, except for the heartwarming story. And hey, it IS a heartwarming story...but he shouldn't be running against able-bodied athletes, period.
If anyone really cares, the Cliff's Notes are that he was originally banned because it was demonstrated that the blades gave him a significant advantage vs. normal legs. However, there were procedural errors and some basic other facts which made the evidence "questionable". In other words, it was thrown out on a technicality. His team then gerrymandered some highly-questionable research which CAS somehow accepted, but the flaws in this research are easy to see. Whether the IOC pressured CAS or it was just a bad decision...who knows. The bottom line is that his running economy is significantly higher than able-bodied sprinters, and he has a very clear advantage from the blades. However, since he doesn't have the ability of the top guys in the world, he's not beating them. Assuming he had the same running economy of other world-class sprinters, he'd basically be a top high school runner, and that's about it. It doesn't fit the heartwarming narrative everyone is tuning into see, but that's the clearly-demonstrated reality.
If people want to read the long version, this article does a great job of detailing the entire thing: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/08/scientific-evidence-for-advantage-for.html It's a long read, but if anyone wants "proof" that the blades give him an advantage over normal legs, that does it for me.
By the way, I share your disdain for the Olympics, but for quite different reasons. It's a massive money grab for corrupt Olympic officials and even more corrupt international sporting federations. It certainly doesn't do much to benefit the athletes, with a few high-profile exceptions. That's why many of the best athletes aren't even there, and why a lot of events are excluded (and ridiculous ones included). But it's facile to blame this on "the liberals"...
It all matters not a spit in the ocean to me anyway....why? Because people such as yourself, well meaning but without an ability to exercise common sense, have all but ruined the once great Olympic Games with frivolity, political correctness, and politically left of center ideals.
Once again, to ease the rabid out there....it's just my opinion.
You're WAY off base blaming this on "political correctness" and the "political left". That just suits your own bias to view everything with which you disagree as the fault of "those liberals".
Quite the opposite, this is capitalism at its finest...and worst. This is about one thing: money. Pistorius is one of the most high-profile athletes and he's a very average sprinter. No one outside of his home country would know his name, except for the heartwarming story. And hey, it IS a heartwarming story...but he shouldn't be running against able-bodied athletes, period.
If anyone really cares, the Cliff's Notes are that he was originally banned because it was demonstrated that the blades gave him a significant advantage vs. normal legs. However, there were procedural errors and some basic other facts which made the evidence "questionable". In other words, it was thrown out on a technicality. His team then gerrymandered some highly-questionable research which CAS somehow accepted, but the flaws in this research are easy to see. Whether the IOC pressured CAS or it was just a bad decision...who knows. The bottom line is that his running economy is significantly higher than able-bodied sprinters, and he has a very clear advantage from the blades. However, since he doesn't have the ability of the top guys in the world, he's not beating them. Assuming he had the same running economy of other world-class sprinters, he'd basically be a top high school runner, and that's about it. It doesn't fit the heartwarming narrative everyone is tuning into see, but that's the clearly-demonstrated reality.
If people want to read the long version, this article does a great job of detailing the entire thing: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/08/scientific-evidence-for-advantage-for.html It's a long read, but if anyone wants "proof" that the blades give him an advantage over normal legs, that does it for me.
By the way, I share your disdain for the Olympics, but for quite different reasons. It's a massive money grab for corrupt Olympic officials and even more corrupt international sporting federations. It certainly doesn't do much to benefit the athletes, with a few high-profile exceptions. That's why many of the best athletes aren't even there, and why a lot of events are excluded (and ridiculous ones included). But it's facile to blame this on "the liberals"...
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Quattro Pete specifically disclaimed his own statements - there is no need to castigate him and act superior.
His obvious point was valid, and he himself pointed out that the examples were extreme.
That's your opinion. I don't see any valid point in comparing false teeth to a prosthetic limb. You are correct in that he says it's an extreme example....but that sort of explains it right there. It's extreme in the least and lacks validity. The two are not comparable nor is it common sense to even use the two as examples to make a point. And what is the point, exactly? So....if I'm getting this right, his point is that you can't exclude a PARTICULAR prosthesis from athletic competition with excluding ALL others as well? Why is that reasonable or valid? Are we not THINKING beings with an ability to differentiate between what prosthetic has potential for effecting athletic performance....and one (such as false teeth) that common sense dictates it would not?
As for the acting superior bit? I have no clue where you are coming from. I'm merely trying to point out the importance of a standard when it comes to athletic competition at the Olympic level. Human anatomy vs. human anatomy with the differences coming out in training and natural ability. Unnatural body parts effecting performance negate that and turn it into something completely different.
Quattro Pete specifically disclaimed his own statements - there is no need to castigate him and act superior.
His obvious point was valid, and he himself pointed out that the examples were extreme.
That's your opinion. I don't see any valid point in comparing false teeth to a prosthetic limb. You are correct in that he says it's an extreme example....but that sort of explains it right there. It's extreme in the least and lacks validity. The two are not comparable nor is it common sense to even use the two as examples to make a point. And what is the point, exactly? So....if I'm getting this right, his point is that you can't exclude a PARTICULAR prosthesis from athletic competition with excluding ALL others as well? Why is that reasonable or valid? Are we not THINKING beings with an ability to differentiate between what prosthetic has potential for effecting athletic performance....and one (such as false teeth) that common sense dictates it would not?
As for the acting superior bit? I have no clue where you are coming from. I'm merely trying to point out the importance of a standard when it comes to athletic competition at the Olympic level. Human anatomy vs. human anatomy with the differences coming out in training and natural ability. Unnatural body parts effecting performance negate that and turn it into something completely different.
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: andrewg
It all matters not a spit in the ocean to me anyway....why? Because people such as yourself, well meaning but without an ability to exercise common sense, have all but ruined the once great Olympic Games with frivolity, political correctness, and politically left of center ideals.
Once again, to ease the rabid out there....it's just my opinion.
You're WAY off base blaming this on "political correctness" and the "political left". That just suits your own bias to view everything with which you disagree as the fault of "those liberals".
Quite the opposite, this is capitalism at its finest...and worst. This is about one thing: money. Pistorius is one of the most high-profile athletes and he's a very average sprinter. No one outside of his home country would know his name, except for the heartwarming story. And hey, it IS a heartwarming story...but he shouldn't be running against able-bodied athletes, period.
If anyone really cares, the Cliff's Notes are that he was originally banned because it was demonstrated that the blades gave him a significant advantage vs. normal legs. However, there were procedural errors and some basic other facts which made the evidence "questionable". In other words, it was thrown out on a technicality. His team then gerrymandered some highly-questionable research which CAS somehow accepted, but the flaws in this research are easy to see. Whether the IOC pressured CAS or it was just a bad decision...who knows. The bottom line is that his running economy is significantly higher than able-bodied sprinters, and he has a very clear advantage from the blades. However, since he doesn't have the ability of the top guys in the world, he's not beating them. Assuming he had the same running economy of other world-class sprinters, he'd basically be a top high school runner, and that's about it. It doesn't fit the heartwarming narrative everyone is tuning into see, but that's the clearly-demonstrated reality.
If people want to read the long version, this article does a great job of detailing the entire thing: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/08/scientific-evidence-for-advantage-for.html It's a long read, but if anyone wants "proof" that the blades give him an advantage over normal legs, that does it for me.
By the way, I share your disdain for the Olympics, but for quite different reasons. It's a massive money grab for corrupt Olympic officials and even more corrupt international sporting federations. It certainly doesn't do much to benefit the athletes, with a few high-profile exceptions. That's why many of the best athletes aren't even there, and why a lot of events are excluded (and ridiculous ones included). But it's facile to blame this on "the liberals"...
I've not blamed completely my disdain of the games on "those liberals". Matter of fact, where did I say that? You've added and misquoted here as well as being rather disingenuous. I will admit to what I did say....and that was how I am of the opinion that left of center ideals have become a part of the games. I stand by that. It's my opinion....but you've extrapolated that and made it into a larger part of my opinion yet negated my whole point about the reasons I don't agree with prosthetic devices being used by athletes (whether it improves, harms, or equals naturally appended competitors). That's my basic point. I really don't care at all about it anyway. As you say yourself, it's the money. And yes, it is capitalistic for sure. I just miss the Olympics of old. Then, at least, they attempted to stay on the course of the original intent and purity of athletic competition. Today, for the reasons I stated (an opinion), and because of the downside of capitalism creeping in, it's not something I care to watch.
Originally Posted By: andrewg
It all matters not a spit in the ocean to me anyway....why? Because people such as yourself, well meaning but without an ability to exercise common sense, have all but ruined the once great Olympic Games with frivolity, political correctness, and politically left of center ideals.
Once again, to ease the rabid out there....it's just my opinion.
You're WAY off base blaming this on "political correctness" and the "political left". That just suits your own bias to view everything with which you disagree as the fault of "those liberals".
Quite the opposite, this is capitalism at its finest...and worst. This is about one thing: money. Pistorius is one of the most high-profile athletes and he's a very average sprinter. No one outside of his home country would know his name, except for the heartwarming story. And hey, it IS a heartwarming story...but he shouldn't be running against able-bodied athletes, period.
If anyone really cares, the Cliff's Notes are that he was originally banned because it was demonstrated that the blades gave him a significant advantage vs. normal legs. However, there were procedural errors and some basic other facts which made the evidence "questionable". In other words, it was thrown out on a technicality. His team then gerrymandered some highly-questionable research which CAS somehow accepted, but the flaws in this research are easy to see. Whether the IOC pressured CAS or it was just a bad decision...who knows. The bottom line is that his running economy is significantly higher than able-bodied sprinters, and he has a very clear advantage from the blades. However, since he doesn't have the ability of the top guys in the world, he's not beating them. Assuming he had the same running economy of other world-class sprinters, he'd basically be a top high school runner, and that's about it. It doesn't fit the heartwarming narrative everyone is tuning into see, but that's the clearly-demonstrated reality.
If people want to read the long version, this article does a great job of detailing the entire thing: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/08/scientific-evidence-for-advantage-for.html It's a long read, but if anyone wants "proof" that the blades give him an advantage over normal legs, that does it for me.
By the way, I share your disdain for the Olympics, but for quite different reasons. It's a massive money grab for corrupt Olympic officials and even more corrupt international sporting federations. It certainly doesn't do much to benefit the athletes, with a few high-profile exceptions. That's why many of the best athletes aren't even there, and why a lot of events are excluded (and ridiculous ones included). But it's facile to blame this on "the liberals"...
I've not blamed completely my disdain of the games on "those liberals". Matter of fact, where did I say that? You've added and misquoted here as well as being rather disingenuous. I will admit to what I did say....and that was how I am of the opinion that left of center ideals have become a part of the games. I stand by that. It's my opinion....but you've extrapolated that and made it into a larger part of my opinion yet negated my whole point about the reasons I don't agree with prosthetic devices being used by athletes (whether it improves, harms, or equals naturally appended competitors). That's my basic point. I really don't care at all about it anyway. As you say yourself, it's the money. And yes, it is capitalistic for sure. I just miss the Olympics of old. Then, at least, they attempted to stay on the course of the original intent and purity of athletic competition. Today, for the reasons I stated (an opinion), and because of the downside of capitalism creeping in, it's not something I care to watch.
Andrew, how am I supposed to read that when you blame it on the Olympic's "left of center ideals". Those are your exact words, and sorry...they're off-base.
Then again, don't kid yourself, the Olympics has been fraught with corruption for a long time, so it's nothing new. So, I think it's a bit of rose-colored glasses from the olden days. Corruption in the Olympics is as old as the games themselves.
Then again, don't kid yourself, the Olympics has been fraught with corruption for a long time, so it's nothing new. So, I think it's a bit of rose-colored glasses from the olden days. Corruption in the Olympics is as old as the games themselves.
Originally Posted By: JOD
Andrew, how am I supposed to read that when you blame it on the Olympic's "left of center ideals". Those are your exact words, and sorry...they're off-base.
Then again, don't kid yourself, the Olympics has been fraught with corruption for a long time, so it's nothing new. So, I think it's a bit of rose-colored glasses from the olden days. Corruption in the Olympics is as old as the games themselves.
Well, I see your point and agree for the most part. And yes, I often do see the world of old in a more positive light than it may have been. But still, the path the Olympics has taken has brought it to a point where it has become meaningless to me. My comment of it being influenced by 'left of center ideals' means just that (my opinion). I really don't want to muck up the board with substantiating my comment. I don't want to break the rules. But to clarify my own opinions (because you seemed to have lumped me into a certain group), I am not 100% supportive of capitalism in ALL it's ramifications. I am also not 100% against ALL things leaning left. But to say that my opinion was "off base"? Not for me it isn't....that's why it's an opinion on a board welcoming opinions (if not meant to incite).
Anyway...I have no dog left in this race...carry on.
Andrew, how am I supposed to read that when you blame it on the Olympic's "left of center ideals". Those are your exact words, and sorry...they're off-base.
Then again, don't kid yourself, the Olympics has been fraught with corruption for a long time, so it's nothing new. So, I think it's a bit of rose-colored glasses from the olden days. Corruption in the Olympics is as old as the games themselves.
Well, I see your point and agree for the most part. And yes, I often do see the world of old in a more positive light than it may have been. But still, the path the Olympics has taken has brought it to a point where it has become meaningless to me. My comment of it being influenced by 'left of center ideals' means just that (my opinion). I really don't want to muck up the board with substantiating my comment. I don't want to break the rules. But to clarify my own opinions (because you seemed to have lumped me into a certain group), I am not 100% supportive of capitalism in ALL it's ramifications. I am also not 100% against ALL things leaning left. But to say that my opinion was "off base"? Not for me it isn't....that's why it's an opinion on a board welcoming opinions (if not meant to incite).
Anyway...I have no dog left in this race...carry on.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: JOD
Then again, don't kid yourself, the Olympics has been fraught with corruption for a long time, so it's nothing new. So, I think it's a bit of rose-colored glasses from the olden days. Corruption in the Olympics is as old as the games themselves.
Yes, and it also was NOT much less corrupt in the "good ol' days" of purist amateurism.
As for the rest of the (Randian) political garbage, I am staying out of that for my own good.
(BUT, if the games were soooo left-leaning/left idealistic, then WHY are there still many shooting events in them?? Think about that.
)
Then again, don't kid yourself, the Olympics has been fraught with corruption for a long time, so it's nothing new. So, I think it's a bit of rose-colored glasses from the olden days. Corruption in the Olympics is as old as the games themselves.
Yes, and it also was NOT much less corrupt in the "good ol' days" of purist amateurism.
As for the rest of the (Randian) political garbage, I am staying out of that for my own good.
(BUT, if the games were soooo left-leaning/left idealistic, then WHY are there still many shooting events in them?? Think about that.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: JOD
Then again, don't kid yourself, the Olympics has been fraught with corruption for a long time, so it's nothing new. So, I think it's a bit of rose-colored glasses from the olden days. Corruption in the Olympics is as old as the games themselves.
Yes, and it also was NOT much less corrupt in the "good ol' days" of purist amateurism.
While I am pretty cynical about much of the Olympics, David Rudisha's 800M win was one of the most amazing feats of sport I've ever seen, from a guy who really defines the word "champion". Hard to explain if you don't follow middle distance running, though this article is a good start. To set the world record in this event doing the entire race from the front is simply unbelievable. So, I guess the Olympics weren't all bad...
Originally Posted By: JOD
Then again, don't kid yourself, the Olympics has been fraught with corruption for a long time, so it's nothing new. So, I think it's a bit of rose-colored glasses from the olden days. Corruption in the Olympics is as old as the games themselves.
Yes, and it also was NOT much less corrupt in the "good ol' days" of purist amateurism.
While I am pretty cynical about much of the Olympics, David Rudisha's 800M win was one of the most amazing feats of sport I've ever seen, from a guy who really defines the word "champion". Hard to explain if you don't follow middle distance running, though this article is a good start. To set the world record in this event doing the entire race from the front is simply unbelievable. So, I guess the Olympics weren't all bad...
Quote:
I just miss the Olympics of old. Then, at least, they attempted to stay on the course of the original intent and purity of athletic competition.
Like when Hitler tried to have a man compete in the woman's high jump (he finished 4th)
Or ANY of the competitors from the DDR?
Like the disparity in build between athletes from FRG and DDR was naturally occuring.
(East and West Germany) You put up a wall and the athletes east of the wall will naturally be stronger and bigger. The women will me more masculine. No no no...never mind the injection marks on them. That's something else.
Seems like all the former Soviet bloc countries cheated pretty heavily. Poland and DDR were most notable.
I just miss the Olympics of old. Then, at least, they attempted to stay on the course of the original intent and purity of athletic competition.
Like when Hitler tried to have a man compete in the woman's high jump (he finished 4th)
Or ANY of the competitors from the DDR?
Like the disparity in build between athletes from FRG and DDR was naturally occuring.
Seems like all the former Soviet bloc countries cheated pretty heavily. Poland and DDR were most notable.
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: JOD
Then again, don't kid yourself, the Olympics has been fraught with corruption for a long time, so it's nothing new. So, I think it's a bit of rose-colored glasses from the olden days. Corruption in the Olympics is as old as the games themselves.
Yes, and it also was NOT much less corrupt in the "good ol' days" of purist amateurism.
While I am pretty cynical about much of the Olympics, David Rudisha's 800M win was one of the most amazing feats of sport I've ever seen, from a guy who really defines the word "champion". Hard to explain if you don't follow middle distance running, though this article is a good start. To set the world record in this event doing the entire race from the front is simply unbelievable. So, I guess the Olympics weren't all bad...
Yes, AGREED very much so!!
I will admit to not following middle distance running as closely as I did in the past (the half mile was my event in high school, along with cross-country), but I always thought it was one of the toughest events being the long, extended sprint it is!
What is even more amazing is that Mr. Rudisha is built quite thin for a current 800 meter/half miler, as most of the modern era competitors are starting to resemble 400 meter/quarter mile sprinters more so than 'emaciated-looking' 5000/10,000 meter runners.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: JOD
Then again, don't kid yourself, the Olympics has been fraught with corruption for a long time, so it's nothing new. So, I think it's a bit of rose-colored glasses from the olden days. Corruption in the Olympics is as old as the games themselves.
Yes, and it also was NOT much less corrupt in the "good ol' days" of purist amateurism.
While I am pretty cynical about much of the Olympics, David Rudisha's 800M win was one of the most amazing feats of sport I've ever seen, from a guy who really defines the word "champion". Hard to explain if you don't follow middle distance running, though this article is a good start. To set the world record in this event doing the entire race from the front is simply unbelievable. So, I guess the Olympics weren't all bad...
Yes, AGREED very much so!!
I will admit to not following middle distance running as closely as I did in the past (the half mile was my event in high school, along with cross-country), but I always thought it was one of the toughest events being the long, extended sprint it is!
What is even more amazing is that Mr. Rudisha is built quite thin for a current 800 meter/half miler, as most of the modern era competitors are starting to resemble 400 meter/quarter mile sprinters more so than 'emaciated-looking' 5000/10,000 meter runners.
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