Oils w/ Tougher Approval

[930.engineering]

I keep seeing posts where people denigrate buying oil that meets a spec higher than the minimum standard in the owners manual.

I'd say that's normal human behaviour.

Has someone seen studies that give support to this position.

I doubt that's available to the public. However many manufacturers 'upgrade'
their 'old' approvals quite frequently, indicating improvements are beneficial.

To me it seems dubious that the higher standards for wear, deposits, corrosion and lubricant stability between say API SJ and D1G3 are effectively worthless in the real world. Any input on this?

I agree it could be dubious that they're effectively worthless in the real world,
but is that what you actually wanted to say?
.

 

[Gene K]

I agree it could be dubious that they're effectively worthless in the real world,
but is that what you actually wanted to say?

I don't know. Maybe I made a mistake. I'm not an English major.

Dubious = suspect

Effectively worthless = Of no real value

 

[tcp71]

I don't know. Maybe I made a mistake. I'm not an English major.

Dubious = suspect

Effectively worthless = Of no real value

You had it right, just a double negative thrown in: dubious and worthless cancelled each other out so you said, "I believe there is value to higher specifications"...without actually saying that. I agree with that statement.

 

[Gene K]

You had it right, just a double negative thrown in: dubious and worthless cancelled each other out so you said, "I believe there is value to higher specifications"...without actually saying that. I agree with that statement.

That is the sentiment I wished to convey, yes.

 

[930.engineering]

You had it right, just a double negative thrown in: dubious and worthless cancelled each other out so you said, "I believe there is value to higher specifications"...without actually saying that. I agree with that statement.

That's what I was trying to point out, and I was under the impression that's not
what he was trying to say, given what he wrote in the beginning of his 1st post.
However I could be wrong.
.

 

[Gene K]

That's what I was trying to point out, and I was under the impression that's not
what he was trying to say, given what he wrote in the beginning of his 1st post.
However I could be wrong.
.

"Effectively worthless" was paraphrasing the sentiments being expressed by others. I was stating I was dubious of the validity of said sentiments. I don't believe questioning the validity of a negative view is entirely the same as stating you hold a positive view.

 

[2EHA]

this is only a problem with the superkirkland crowd and the clearance rack predators that think dexos1 is the pinnacle of oil approvals.

 

[Gene K]

this is only a problem with the superkirkland crowd and the clearance rack predators that think dexos1 is the pinnacle of oil approvals.

Without D1G2 you have no way of knowing if a store brand synthetic is any better than their basic blend. I think most budget shoppers want it for that reason. It's become the default base synthetic approval. I don't know of anyone that thinks it's the pinnacle of approvals.

 

[OilUzer]

The funny thing is that some heavy-duty (with regards to specs like A40, MB, VW, etc.) Euro oils are same price or even cheaper than non-Euro dexos oils ...
For example, I paid more for M1 EP than either M1 FS or Castrol Euro!
So what's going on here? Are they trying to lure you in with cheaper prices or are the Euro oils misunderstood and no one is buying?
Seems like regular Valvoline, M1, M1 EP, etc. are more expensive than fancy Euro oils!

Is it marketing + average consumer unfamiliarity with Euro oils that keeping the prices down?

 

[Gene K]

Without D1G2 you have no way of knowing if a store brand synthetic is any better than their basic blend. I think most budget shoppers want it for that reason. It's become the default base synthetic approval. I don't know of anyone that thinks it's the pinnacle of approvals.

The funny thing is that some heavy-duty (with regards to specs like A40, MB, VW, etc.) Euro oils are same price or even cheaper than non-Euro dexos oils ...
For example, I paid more for M1 EP than either M1 FS or Castrol Euro!
So what's going on here? Are they trying to lure you in with cheaper prices or are the Euro oils misunderstood and no one is buying?
Seems like regular Valvoline, M1, M1 EP, etc. are more expensive than fancy Euro oils!

Is it marketing + average consumer unfamiliarity with Euro oils that keeping the prices down?

I think its a little more complicated thsn that. A high SAPS oil is relatively affordable. Low SAPS not so much. Generally Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 is a lot cheaper than Mobil 1 ESP X3 0W40. The regular High SAPS M1 has been similar in price to standard M1 for as long as I can remember.

 

[2EHA]

I think its a little more complicated thsn that. A high SAPS oil is relatively affordable. Low SAPS not so much. Generally Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 is a lot cheaper than Mobil 1 ESP X3 0W40.

esp x3 is a flagship product.

c3 5w30 oils that curbstomp any vanilla dexos are everywhere

 

[Gene K]

esp x3 is a flagship product.

c3 5w30 oils that curbstomp any vanilla dexos are everywhere

I don't think of a $3-4 qt D1G3 as a competitor to C3. I think of D1G2 as being the first upgrade of specs after SP GF-6. Especially if talking about a new vehicle that's first requirement is the API Starburst.

 

[2EHA]

I don't think of a $3-4 qt D1G3 as a competitor to C3. I think of D1G2 as being the first upgrade of specs after SP GF-6. Especially if talking about a new vehicle that's first requirement is the API Starburst.

sure, there’s a budget for everyone.

that being said there are people who refuse to understand a premium product like m1 ep or a euro oil performs better than what they chose, and especially whenever someone brings up an oci longer than 5k miles

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

sure, there’s a budget for everyone.

that being said there are people who refuse to understand a premium product like m1 ep or a euro oil performs better than what they chose, and especially whenever someone brings up an oci longer than 5k miles

Curious minds would like to know those Premium products are so much better just how many more hundreds of thousands of miles more engine life are we getting not hype the documented real numbers?

 

[Gene K]

Curious minds would like to know those Premium products are so much better just how many more hundreds of thousands of miles more engine life are we getting not hype the documented real numbers?

You know I don't have documented numbers and neither do you. I have certainly seen cars that seemed to suffer a lubricant failure at factory recommended intervals on standard API ILSAC lubricants when thats all thats recommmended. I like to think one of the premium lubricants could have made a difference but maybe I'm deluding myself.

I'm not arguing that everyone needs to spend $40 a quart on oil. I am asking when you see two similar priced products, one with many more approvals why some believe the best option is to flip a coin?

 

[Bill_W]

Curious minds would like to know those Premium products are so much better just how many more hundreds of thousands of miles more engine life are we getting not hype the documented real numbers?

Do not know about the miles, but the money is good.

 

[OilUzer]

Re:

• Dubious = suspect
• Effectively worthless = Of no real value

I am dubious that the fancy oils are as effective as one might think. I mean by going fancier (higher spec) than recommended, you may not gain as much as you would think.

Having said that, I try to buy a fancier oil for my new(er) cars as long as the prices are reasonable. Meaning I won't pay for Ravenol (sp) or $10/qt GC.

$5/qt was my limit before recent price hikes and still is. I've bought M1 EP 10W-30 (my favorite since it burns none) and M1 FS Euro 0W-40 and Castrol a3/b4 Euro 0W-40 all below or near $5/qt. Rest of the cars are getting ~$4/qt oils like Dexos or non-dexos stuff (e.g. GTX Magnatec 10W-30, PP, Kirkland or Havoline 5W-30, etc).

Everything I now buy says "Full Synthetic" including my GTX Magnatec 10W-30 (I have couple of jugs of those left @$19).

Prior to bitog (~5 yrs ago), I would only use dino (or unknowingly was also using a blend Chevron Supreme 5W-30 cuz the jugs didn't say blend) but prices of synthetic are not that much higher and you can have longer oci (longer than 3-4K miles) with Syn and in a long run, it's cheaper to buy syn.

back to the "dubious" thing, I think better oils can make your engine last longer but longer than what?

Based on my experience, if you don't have a high revving or a small or otherwise fancy turbo or don't do 50mph in 2nd gear ... following the min required oil in the owner's manual will do fine.

If I use fancier oil than recommended (I don't own any turbo or a fussy European car), I am dubious that it makes much difference. I am very certain that OCI has much more of real value than a fancy oil and have had many cars running dino for years (up to 400K+ miles) with no issues!

I think it's more about reasonable oci than using a fancier oil than recommended.

 

[Bill_W]

If you have a 6 month OCI, boutique oil is a waste of money… But oil is not my profession. Just being Scottish.

 

[930.engineering]

.
You're missing the point. This discussion is not about 'boutique oil'.
I'm even not sure if the term 'fancier' (oils) is appropriate for PCMOs
with improved proven performance. Which exactly is what approvals
are about.
.

 

[Bill_W]

It is about what is the best standard to follow. Can you show proven performance? But given you mentioned it… doesn’t OCI periods determine the standards, at least for a naturally aspirated modern engine not modified. Should you follow the OCI and standards required in the operator’s manual.