I have read that you want oil temperature consistently at or over 212 degrees (boiling point of water) but not much over 250 due to Conventional oil starting to break down around 270. I notice M1 claims there oil holds up with engine temperatures of 500 degrees but that's not talking about oil temp. Between the top brands PP M1 and such is there any real data on how high the temp can get and not start to break down like conventional oil? Not saying flash point but oxidation / breakdown point. Anyone know anything?
Oil temp
- Thread starter Jake777
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Originally Posted By: Jake777
I have read that you want oil temperature consistently at or over 212 degrees (boiling point of water) but not much over 250 due to Conventional oil starting to break down around 270. I notice M1 claims there oil holds up with engine temperatures of 500 degrees but that's not talking about oil temp. Between the top brands PP M1 and such is there any real data on how high the temp can get and not start to break down like conventional oil? Not saying flash point but oxidation / breakdown point. Anyone know anything?
Read away. As you can see group II base oils perform better than the junk you quoted as far oxidation and thermal stability.
http://www.bmwtips.com/tipsntricks/oil/groupiiioil.pdf
PAO will have better oxidation stability when paired with a proper antioxidant.
The entire formulation is key not just base oils.
I have read that you want oil temperature consistently at or over 212 degrees (boiling point of water) but not much over 250 due to Conventional oil starting to break down around 270. I notice M1 claims there oil holds up with engine temperatures of 500 degrees but that's not talking about oil temp. Between the top brands PP M1 and such is there any real data on how high the temp can get and not start to break down like conventional oil? Not saying flash point but oxidation / breakdown point. Anyone know anything?
Read away. As you can see group II base oils perform better than the junk you quoted as far oxidation and thermal stability.
http://www.bmwtips.com/tipsntricks/oil/groupiiioil.pdf
PAO will have better oxidation stability when paired with a proper antioxidant.
The entire formulation is key not just base oils.
At 200F it is oxidating already, not as quick as at 250, but still is.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Jake777
I have read that you want oil temperature consistently at or over 212 degrees (boiling point of water) but not much over 250 due to Conventional oil starting to break down around 270. I notice M1 claims there oil holds up with engine temperatures of 500 degrees but that's not talking about oil temp. Between the top brands PP M1 and such is there any real data on how high the temp can get and not start to break down like conventional oil? Not saying flash point but oxidation / breakdown point. Anyone know anything?
Read away. As you can see group II base oils perform better than the junk you quoted as far oxidation and thermal stability.
http://www.bmwtips.com/tipsntricks/oil/groupiiioil.pdf
PAO will have better oxidation stability when paired with a proper antioxidant.
The entire formulation is key not just base oils.
Dave. You have many posts and I assume you know a thing or two so perhaps you could teach me. You say from the material that you posted I would be able to tell that any group II is better than the "junk" M1 or PP that I named. Did you miss type or did I just not read the same thing you posted? I just went through that document and from what I could tell it says that group III was better and M1 and PP are both group III base stocks. I must be missing something here and I am not trying to be a smart *** I just don't follow your comment and would genuinely like to learn. What is your opinion on group II and III?
Originally Posted By: Jake777
I have read that you want oil temperature consistently at or over 212 degrees (boiling point of water) but not much over 250 due to Conventional oil starting to break down around 270. I notice M1 claims there oil holds up with engine temperatures of 500 degrees but that's not talking about oil temp. Between the top brands PP M1 and such is there any real data on how high the temp can get and not start to break down like conventional oil? Not saying flash point but oxidation / breakdown point. Anyone know anything?
Read away. As you can see group II base oils perform better than the junk you quoted as far oxidation and thermal stability.
http://www.bmwtips.com/tipsntricks/oil/groupiiioil.pdf
PAO will have better oxidation stability when paired with a proper antioxidant.
The entire formulation is key not just base oils.
Dave. You have many posts and I assume you know a thing or two so perhaps you could teach me. You say from the material that you posted I would be able to tell that any group II is better than the "junk" M1 or PP that I named. Did you miss type or did I just not read the same thing you posted? I just went through that document and from what I could tell it says that group III was better and M1 and PP are both group III base stocks. I must be missing something here and I am not trying to be a smart *** I just don't follow your comment and would genuinely like to learn. What is your opinion on group II and III?
The propose of my previous post was to show you there is no cut and dry answer to your question. Oxidation rate in a PCMO is not solely dependent on the group of the baseoil. Without a proper antioxidant all baseoils will oxidize very quickly at temperature that a IC engine operates and varnish and slugging will occur.
A lubricant is more than the sum of its parts,and to focus on a single metric is a fools errand.
Which means basestocks are only a part of the formulation,not the whole thing.
Which means basestocks are only a part of the formulation,not the whole thing.
Originally Posted By: aircooled
I don't know about having to be at 212 and above.
I think it has to do with time at operating temp.
My car has an oil temp monitor and it runs mid to high 190's
Moisture will be driven off at these temps.
Yeah, it doesn't really need to be at 212. It'll just take slightly longer to evaporate at lower temp.
I don't know about having to be at 212 and above.
I think it has to do with time at operating temp.
My car has an oil temp monitor and it runs mid to high 190's
Moisture will be driven off at these temps.
Yeah, it doesn't really need to be at 212. It'll just take slightly longer to evaporate at lower temp.
It's a common misconception that you need to 'boil' the water out of oil. Water will escape at anything above absolute zero, it just happens faster and faster the closer you get to boiling. Water at 200 degrees is losing particles faster than water at 100, which is losing particles faster than water at 33 degrees.
Bingo. The real issue is to have the water leave the oil faster than it's entering it, which is way short tripping or an engine running too cold can be problematic.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Jake777
I have read that you want oil temperature consistently at or over 212 degrees (boiling point of water) but not much over 250 due to Conventional oil starting to break down around 270. I notice M1 claims there oil holds up with engine temperatures of 500 degrees but that's not talking about oil temp. Between the top brands PP M1 and such is there any real data on how high the temp can get and not start to break down like conventional oil? Not saying flash point but oxidation / breakdown point. Anyone know anything?
Read away. As you can see group II base oils perform better than the junk you quoted as far oxidation and thermal stability.
http://www.bmwtips.com/tipsntricks/oil/groupiiioil.pdf
PAO will have better oxidation stability when paired with a proper antioxidant.
The entire formulation is key not just base oils.
Thanks for posting the link, interesting, but I will need a little time to read it in detail.
Some of it is only so useful to the average consumer, as I have no idea how many aromatic-naphthenes are in the oil I buy. However Fig. 7 shows Oxidation Stability Vs Vis. Index., which suggests a high VI oil is more stable.
This is something I can work with.
Originally Posted By: Jake777
I have read that you want oil temperature consistently at or over 212 degrees (boiling point of water) but not much over 250 due to Conventional oil starting to break down around 270. I notice M1 claims there oil holds up with engine temperatures of 500 degrees but that's not talking about oil temp. Between the top brands PP M1 and such is there any real data on how high the temp can get and not start to break down like conventional oil? Not saying flash point but oxidation / breakdown point. Anyone know anything?
Read away. As you can see group II base oils perform better than the junk you quoted as far oxidation and thermal stability.
http://www.bmwtips.com/tipsntricks/oil/groupiiioil.pdf
PAO will have better oxidation stability when paired with a proper antioxidant.
The entire formulation is key not just base oils.
Thanks for posting the link, interesting, but I will need a little time to read it in detail.
Some of it is only so useful to the average consumer, as I have no idea how many aromatic-naphthenes are in the oil I buy. However Fig. 7 shows Oxidation Stability Vs Vis. Index., which suggests a high VI oil is more stable.
This is something I can work with.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: SR5
I have no idea how many aromatic-naphthenes are in the oil I buy. However Fig. 7 shows Oxidation Stability Vs Vis. Index., which suggests a high VI oil is more stable.
This is something I can work with.
Specifically it states:
Quote:
The influence of V.I. [i.e. multi-ring naphthene content] on oxidation
stability for the low-aromatic 4 cSt base stocks is illustrated in figure 7.
This figure shows that, in general, base oil oxidation stability increases
with increasing V.I. However, from the scatter in the data, it is evident
that other factors are also involved.
A higher VI BASE OIL is GENERALLY more stable for a given viscosity. It is not suggesting a high VI oil is more stable. The VI for a finished lubricant does not directly represent that of the base oils used to blend it.
I have no idea how many aromatic-naphthenes are in the oil I buy. However Fig. 7 shows Oxidation Stability Vs Vis. Index., which suggests a high VI oil is more stable.
This is something I can work with.
Specifically it states:
Quote:
The influence of V.I. [i.e. multi-ring naphthene content] on oxidation
stability for the low-aromatic 4 cSt base stocks is illustrated in figure 7.
This figure shows that, in general, base oil oxidation stability increases
with increasing V.I. However, from the scatter in the data, it is evident
that other factors are also involved.
A higher VI BASE OIL is GENERALLY more stable for a given viscosity. It is not suggesting a high VI oil is more stable. The VI for a finished lubricant does not directly represent that of the base oils used to blend it.
Originally Posted By: Jake777
Thanks. Out of curiosity Dave what brand oil do you use in your daily driver?
My pickup has the factory fill. In my wife's Focus Valvoline Maxlife I got for 2.49 a quart.
Thanks. Out of curiosity Dave what brand oil do you use in your daily driver?
My pickup has the factory fill. In my wife's Focus Valvoline Maxlife I got for 2.49 a quart.
.
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Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
A higher VI BASE OIL is GENERALLY more stable for a given viscosity. It is not suggesting a high VI oil is more stable. The VI for a finished lubricant does not directly represent that of the base oils used to blend it.
Hi OVERKILL,
You are completely correct. I sort of knew the VI of the base oil was not the same as the VI of a finished product. I just didn't realise that "base oil oxidation stability increases with increasing V.I." Which I found interesting. Sorry if I caused any confusion to any readers.
From another thread
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Properly treated Group IIs are much better on oxidation and sludge formation than their old, Group I counterparts. …….. if 15W40 is SN, it's a sure sign it's Group II.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3841980/1
I have mostly used synthetics in the last ten years, but since reading many posts on BITOG, I feel I have been selling the modern mineral oils short, and I feel like giving them another go. My interest right now, and I feel this may be the case for a few other readers, is what clues to look for to try and distinguish a better quality mineral oil from one of lesser quality.
It sounds like in North America, you pretty much have only SN mineral oil for sale. Here, and I assume in other places around the world, SN / SM / SL minerals oils are commonly for sale, as well as some older SG mineral oils.
Any advice on final product selection would be welcome. I feel the OP was asking for similar guidance, knowing it's a complex situation and absolutes are not possible.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
A higher VI BASE OIL is GENERALLY more stable for a given viscosity. It is not suggesting a high VI oil is more stable. The VI for a finished lubricant does not directly represent that of the base oils used to blend it.
Hi OVERKILL,
You are completely correct. I sort of knew the VI of the base oil was not the same as the VI of a finished product. I just didn't realise that "base oil oxidation stability increases with increasing V.I." Which I found interesting. Sorry if I caused any confusion to any readers.
From another thread
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Properly treated Group IIs are much better on oxidation and sludge formation than their old, Group I counterparts. …….. if 15W40 is SN, it's a sure sign it's Group II.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3841980/1
I have mostly used synthetics in the last ten years, but since reading many posts on BITOG, I feel I have been selling the modern mineral oils short, and I feel like giving them another go. My interest right now, and I feel this may be the case for a few other readers, is what clues to look for to try and distinguish a better quality mineral oil from one of lesser quality.
It sounds like in North America, you pretty much have only SN mineral oil for sale. Here, and I assume in other places around the world, SN / SM / SL minerals oils are commonly for sale, as well as some older SG mineral oils.
Any advice on final product selection would be welcome. I feel the OP was asking for similar guidance, knowing it's a complex situation and absolutes are not possible.
Last edited:
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