Just because its not recommended in the manual doesn't mean it won't work. It's out of warranty so it would probably run fine on a 5w30 conventional. Can't be any worse than those people going 25-50k on synthetic sludging the motors if its changed more reasonably.
Oil Suggestion - '04 BMW 325Ci
- Thread starter golf5367
- Start date
- Status
No, but if someone asks for a recommendation, then the most logical, and soundest recommendation is to follow what the manufacturer of the vehicle has proven to meet their requirements.
Straight 30 Delo 1000 marine grade "might" work, but unless it is you doing the testing, in your vehicle, with your $$$ at risk, it's not what you should suggest people to do...
Straight 30 Delo 1000 marine grade "might" work, but unless it is you doing the testing, in your vehicle, with your $$$ at risk, it's not what you should suggest people to do...
I already suggested the M1 0w40 in this thread I thought we were moving past that into a discussion about something else now.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
CATERHAM said:I see absolutely NO MENTION of 5w-30 dino oil being remotely close to acceptable for this application
You're right, I don't know how I got it in my mind that the OP's Bimmer was a '94 and and not an '04 but I did.
Anyway BMW's viscosity reserves in there spec' oils are substantial. Running a somewhat lighter 30 grade synthetic oil in reality is not much lighter than the spec' BMW 5W-30 in service (I haven't seen a UOA that hasn't sheared at least 10% even after as little as a 1,000 miles). And BMW doesn't specify anything heavier even for track use which in my experience raises the viscosity requirements by at least 0.3-0.4cP HTHS.
And for what it's worth BMW Canada is on record stating any premium synthetic can be used once the vehicle is out of warranty.
BMW started specifying in 2005 their LL-01 FE 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) for the M54 sucessor, the N51 as an option.
So for a strictly street driven 325Ci with the M54 engine, I contend that any 5W-30 synthetic will more than satisfy the viscosity requirements of the engine.
CATERHAM, you state that BMWs viscosity reserves are "substantial"...how much so ?
It's pretty important to quantify if you are going to be recommending over what the OEM has stated.
Then you claim that the specced oil shears 10%, furthering the basis of your claim...why does it shear, and is your recommendation immune to shear ?
It's circular reasoning reaching a flawed conclusion to eet your thinner is always better agenda.
It's pretty important to quantify if you are going to be recommending over what the OEM has stated.
Then you claim that the specced oil shears 10%, furthering the basis of your claim...why does it shear, and is your recommendation immune to shear ?
It's circular reasoning reaching a flawed conclusion to eet your thinner is always better agenda.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
BMW started specifying in 2005 their LL-01 FE 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) for the M54 sucessor, the N51 as an option.
But I'm betting that they didn't back-spec the M54 right?
Quote:
So for a strictly street driven 325Ci with the M54 engine, I contend that any 5W-30 synthetic will more than satisfy the viscosity requirements of the engine.
And you are certainly entitled to that as your opinion on this (note that I said we'll never agree on it earlier), as I am to mine. My contention is that I see no compelling reason to deviate from an approved lubricant here. It is very easy to stick to an oil that meets the spec given the plethora of LL-01 lubricants on the market. Buying GC is no more difficult than buying Syntec 5w-30
At one point we had a general discussion about using lubricants thinner than what the manufacturer specified. In that thread I believe the exchanged ended in what I would describe as an agreement that for somebody looking to do this, that tracking viscosity and oil temperature (at bare minimum with an oil pressure gauge, but ideally with an oil pressure and oil temperature gauge) was necessary in order to confirm and ensure that the minimum safe viscosity was maintained. This was the crux of your own contention for using thinner lubricants in the applications in your stable, that you verified they were safe choices using this method.
I'm sure you can now see where I am going with this. The specified lubricant for the OP's engine is an oil with an HTHS of >=3.5cP. In order to ensure, using YOUR process, that a thinner lubricant is appropriate, he needs to do the same sort of tracking/verification that you've done with your vehicles. Since I doubt he's actually going to be doing that, it would seem to reason that it would then be inadvisable for him to deviate from the OEM lubricant minimum viscosity requirements.
BMW started specifying in 2005 their LL-01 FE 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) for the M54 sucessor, the N51 as an option.
But I'm betting that they didn't back-spec the M54 right?
Quote:
So for a strictly street driven 325Ci with the M54 engine, I contend that any 5W-30 synthetic will more than satisfy the viscosity requirements of the engine.
And you are certainly entitled to that as your opinion on this (note that I said we'll never agree on it earlier), as I am to mine. My contention is that I see no compelling reason to deviate from an approved lubricant here. It is very easy to stick to an oil that meets the spec given the plethora of LL-01 lubricants on the market. Buying GC is no more difficult than buying Syntec 5w-30
At one point we had a general discussion about using lubricants thinner than what the manufacturer specified. In that thread I believe the exchanged ended in what I would describe as an agreement that for somebody looking to do this, that tracking viscosity and oil temperature (at bare minimum with an oil pressure gauge, but ideally with an oil pressure and oil temperature gauge) was necessary in order to confirm and ensure that the minimum safe viscosity was maintained. This was the crux of your own contention for using thinner lubricants in the applications in your stable, that you verified they were safe choices using this method.
I'm sure you can now see where I am going with this. The specified lubricant for the OP's engine is an oil with an HTHS of >=3.5cP. In order to ensure, using YOUR process, that a thinner lubricant is appropriate, he needs to do the same sort of tracking/verification that you've done with your vehicles. Since I doubt he's actually going to be doing that, it would seem to reason that it would then be inadvisable for him to deviate from the OEM lubricant minimum viscosity requirements.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If an approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil should be unavailable, you may use small amounts of other synthetic oils for topping up between oil
changes. Use only oils with the specification API SH or higher.
Followed by:
Originally Posted By: BMW
Viscosity ratings
Viscosity is the oil flow rating as established in SAE classes. The selection of the correct SAE class depends on the climatic conditions in the area where you drive your BMW. Approved oils are in SAE classes 5W-40 and 5W-30. These kinds of oil may be used for driving in all ambient temperatures.
Which reads to me: Use only an approved lubricant. Oils bearing the BMW approval (in this case, LL-01) will be available in 5w-30 and 5w-40 grades. Of course this was probably before 0w-40 was popular/existed and perhaps the same goes for GC. Any oil you put in this engine, even if an approved lubricant is unavailable, MUST be synthetic.
Yes what threw me was the OP stating that 5W-30 and 15W-40 are the only oil grades specified for his M54 engine which is the case for my older M52 engine and 15W-40 is only a dino grade.
So it seems he made a mistake and 15W-40 is no longer specified as an option but rather the 5W-40 grade.
BTW the 0W-40 grade (not M1 specifically) was already being specified as an option for year round use in my 1986 Porsche drivers handbook. Of course Porsche specified every grade under the sun (5W-20, 0W-30 through straight 40wt (not straight 50wt) and 20W-50) and the ambient temp's under which each could be used.
In 2001 M1 0W-40 became the FF and was back spec'd to MY 1973 for most models.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If an approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil should be unavailable, you may use small amounts of other synthetic oils for topping up between oil
changes. Use only oils with the specification API SH or higher.
Followed by:
Originally Posted By: BMW
Viscosity ratings
Viscosity is the oil flow rating as established in SAE classes. The selection of the correct SAE class depends on the climatic conditions in the area where you drive your BMW. Approved oils are in SAE classes 5W-40 and 5W-30. These kinds of oil may be used for driving in all ambient temperatures.
Which reads to me: Use only an approved lubricant. Oils bearing the BMW approval (in this case, LL-01) will be available in 5w-30 and 5w-40 grades. Of course this was probably before 0w-40 was popular/existed and perhaps the same goes for GC. Any oil you put in this engine, even if an approved lubricant is unavailable, MUST be synthetic.
Yes what threw me was the OP stating that 5W-30 and 15W-40 are the only oil grades specified for his M54 engine which is the case for my older M52 engine and 15W-40 is only a dino grade.
So it seems he made a mistake and 15W-40 is no longer specified as an option but rather the 5W-40 grade.
BTW the 0W-40 grade (not M1 specifically) was already being specified as an option for year round use in my 1986 Porsche drivers handbook. Of course Porsche specified every grade under the sun (5W-20, 0W-30 through straight 40wt (not straight 50wt) and 20W-50) and the ambient temp's under which each could be used.
In 2001 M1 0W-40 became the FF and was back spec'd to MY 1973 for most models.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
BTW the 0W-40 grade (not M1 specifically) was already being specified as an option for year round use in my 1986 Porsche drivers handbook. Of course Porsche specified every grade under the sun (5W-20, 0W-30 through straight 40wt (not straight 50wt) and 20W-50) and the ambient temp's under which each could be used.
In 2001 M1 0W-40 became the FF and was back spec'd to MY 1973 for most models.
And Ford tested 5W-20 for a gajillion km, I know...
but neither manufacturer are BMW, nor make recommendations for them...
BTW the 0W-40 grade (not M1 specifically) was already being specified as an option for year round use in my 1986 Porsche drivers handbook. Of course Porsche specified every grade under the sun (5W-20, 0W-30 through straight 40wt (not straight 50wt) and 20W-50) and the ambient temp's under which each could be used.
In 2001 M1 0W-40 became the FF and was back spec'd to MY 1973 for most models.
And Ford tested 5W-20 for a gajillion km, I know...
but neither manufacturer are BMW, nor make recommendations for them...
Originally Posted By: Shannow
CATERHAM, you state that BMWs viscosity reserves are "substantial"...how much so ?
A lot and I'm not basing it only on my M52 BMW experience.
Over the years a number of Bimmer owners with oil gauges have shared their experiences with myself including running various 0W-20 oils in the winter months which I have also done. I'm not this winter because I only have 3,500 kms on the oil, it's still reasonably light with a HTHSV in the 2.9cP-3.0cP range and it would be a waste to dump it.
Normally aspirated Bimmers don't run high oil temp's on the street, even M series cars don't when driven normally.
Consequently in running a A5/B5 0W/5W-30 I don't know of a scenerio where you will come close to testing the minimum OP test spec's for the engine, I can't and I don't know anyone else who has either.
It is only some BMW and other European car aficionados European makes that get their nickers in a twist obsessing over not running anything lighter than HTHSV 3.5cP almost 40 grade or 40 grade oil.
There are undoubtedly millions of European cars on the road in NA
that have lead very long trouble free lives running whatever 5W-30 oil is commonly available and that is not an A3/B4 oil.
CATERHAM, you state that BMWs viscosity reserves are "substantial"...how much so ?
A lot and I'm not basing it only on my M52 BMW experience.
Over the years a number of Bimmer owners with oil gauges have shared their experiences with myself including running various 0W-20 oils in the winter months which I have also done. I'm not this winter because I only have 3,500 kms on the oil, it's still reasonably light with a HTHSV in the 2.9cP-3.0cP range and it would be a waste to dump it.
Normally aspirated Bimmers don't run high oil temp's on the street, even M series cars don't when driven normally.
Consequently in running a A5/B5 0W/5W-30 I don't know of a scenerio where you will come close to testing the minimum OP test spec's for the engine, I can't and I don't know anyone else who has either.
It is only some BMW and other European car aficionados European makes that get their nickers in a twist obsessing over not running anything lighter than HTHSV 3.5cP almost 40 grade or 40 grade oil.
There are undoubtedly millions of European cars on the road in NA
that have lead very long trouble free lives running whatever 5W-30 oil is commonly available and that is not an A3/B4 oil.
By "a lot", where on the sommerfeld and striebeck curves are they in relation to viscosity and mechanical characteristics, or do you really mean "we've tried lots of stuff and haven't blown one up yet".
One is knowledge, quantifiable, and the other is the reverese of the pile of failed engines argument.
One is knowledge, quantifiable, and the other is the reverese of the pile of failed engines argument.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
By "a lot", where on the sommerfeld and striebeck curves are they in relation to viscosity and mechanical characteristics, or do you really mean "we've tried lots of stuff and haven't blown one up yet".
One is knowledge, quantifiable, and the other is the reverese of the pile of failed engines argument.
You're a funny guy!
If I wanted to test for the actual minimum viscosity possible, I would firstly be running an oil that generates below spec' oil pressure and I know some guys that do and still avoid bearing wiping but that is not what we're discussing here.
I'm of course talking about maintaining a known safe operational viscosity and a A5/B5 0W/5W-30 will easily do that.
By "a lot", where on the sommerfeld and striebeck curves are they in relation to viscosity and mechanical characteristics, or do you really mean "we've tried lots of stuff and haven't blown one up yet".
One is knowledge, quantifiable, and the other is the reverese of the pile of failed engines argument.
You're a funny guy!
If I wanted to test for the actual minimum viscosity possible, I would firstly be running an oil that generates below spec' oil pressure and I know some guys that do and still avoid bearing wiping but that is not what we're discussing here.
I'm of course talking about maintaining a known safe operational viscosity and a A5/B5 0W/5W-30 will easily do that.
I'd have to agree. The Germans did allow some very light oils at one time, and it's not like they threw out every old engine design and started anew. Their biggest problems were excessively long OCIs on conventional along with the "need" for seasonal switching.
The proprietary specifications solved both problems. Nonetheless, it usually isn't a big deal to follow the specifications from a cost perspective, at least in the States, where M1 0w-40 can be had in a jug. Up here, one might have a reason to grouse about M1 0w-40 and GC being only in one litre bottles.
The proprietary specifications solved both problems. Nonetheless, it usually isn't a big deal to follow the specifications from a cost perspective, at least in the States, where M1 0w-40 can be had in a jug. Up here, one might have a reason to grouse about M1 0w-40 and GC being only in one litre bottles.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I'd have to agree. The Germans did allow some very light oils at one time, and it's not like they threw out every old engine design and started anew. Their biggest problems were excessively long OCIs on conventional along with the "need" for seasonal switching.
I think the advent of synthetic oils, 0W-30 and 0W-40 grades in particular, made specifying one OEM grade for year round use practically anywhere on the plant, no matter what the car is used for including going to the track very compelling for the manufacturer's. It eliminated gross errors in oil choice from the less knowledgeable buying public, less in the way of warranty claims and at the end of the day more satisfied customers. Unfortunately it means you must erring on the side of being heavier than necessary for most normal usage and very much so cold winter use.
But if I was in a decision making role with a European car manufacturer I'd likely make the same single grade recommendation, it makes a lot of business sense and avoid more serious issues.
That said, I do find it amusing how seriously some enthusiast groups take the single grade OEM recommendations. On the few occasions I've spoken with actual company engineers I've found them to be much less dogmatic about their own oil grade guidelines.
And I have never found a company engine engineer or knowledgeable rep' who didn't agreed with me when I said I use the lightest oil that allows me to maintain the minimum recommended high rpm oil pressure.
And that usually leads into the reasons why an OP gauge isn't the standard fitment on many models like it used to be.
The fact is, the trend has been away from direct owner/driver involvement over the years non just freely selecting your own oil grade but often now you can't even physically check your own oil (no dip-sticks), working on your car is much more difficult and the move away from manual gearboxes on many high-end sportscars is a sorry trend.
I'd have to agree. The Germans did allow some very light oils at one time, and it's not like they threw out every old engine design and started anew. Their biggest problems were excessively long OCIs on conventional along with the "need" for seasonal switching.
I think the advent of synthetic oils, 0W-30 and 0W-40 grades in particular, made specifying one OEM grade for year round use practically anywhere on the plant, no matter what the car is used for including going to the track very compelling for the manufacturer's. It eliminated gross errors in oil choice from the less knowledgeable buying public, less in the way of warranty claims and at the end of the day more satisfied customers. Unfortunately it means you must erring on the side of being heavier than necessary for most normal usage and very much so cold winter use.
But if I was in a decision making role with a European car manufacturer I'd likely make the same single grade recommendation, it makes a lot of business sense and avoid more serious issues.
That said, I do find it amusing how seriously some enthusiast groups take the single grade OEM recommendations. On the few occasions I've spoken with actual company engineers I've found them to be much less dogmatic about their own oil grade guidelines.
And I have never found a company engine engineer or knowledgeable rep' who didn't agreed with me when I said I use the lightest oil that allows me to maintain the minimum recommended high rpm oil pressure.
And that usually leads into the reasons why an OP gauge isn't the standard fitment on many models like it used to be.
The fact is, the trend has been away from direct owner/driver involvement over the years non just freely selecting your own oil grade but often now you can't even physically check your own oil (no dip-sticks), working on your car is much more difficult and the move away from manual gearboxes on many high-end sportscars is a sorry trend.
And if we were loaded with diesels and turbos here and weren't saddled with the double nickel (and the Canadian equivalent) for decades along with cars terribly easy on oil with 3,000 mile OCIs, things might be different here, too. The reality of the North American driving experience certainly played a role here.
This is my OPINION based on my experience with the M5x series engines, from daily driver duty to full on track cars, and most somewhere in between.
I do have an '01 325i 5MT/ZSP European Delivery with, as of yesterday, 178,922 miles on it and completely original engine (head/block/internals). It is my year round DD.
Also, it sees temperatures from as high as 100F with 100pct humidity to as low as -15F.
For DD purposes, a 0-5W30-40 SYNTHETIC oil, changed every 5-7.5k miles depending on the average trip length, is ideal. The M54 is a strong motor, although it's actually a bit weaker than the M52TU it replaced but it should be of no consequence off the track/autocross course.
I adamantly object to the use of Dino oil in these motors, as I have yet to see a si ngle one that was fed Dino that didn't have significant sludge buildup.
Of course, M1 0w40 is the favorite here, and I have nothing bad to say about it. For the money it's a great oil.
Personally, I have gone through countless different oils and weights, in a search for keeping wear at an absolute minimum while also preventing any deposits or sludge from forming.
The only oils I have one hundred percent faith in, earned from countless miles on road and many thousands more on the track, are Redline and Royal Purple (especially the HPS/XPR mixes).
Regardless of what you choose for the sump, an OCI of no more than 5k (50pct or more city) or 7.5k (majority hwy) miles, and changing the filter every time, is crucial for these cars due to the use of hydraulic lifters + the VANOS system.
Also, regardless of oil brand, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND you do a full fluid change, and use:
Redline D4 ATF for transmission
Motul RBF600 forbrakes
Redline 75W90 ffor differential
Genuine BMW Coolant + Distilled Water (40:60 ratio is good for as low as - 25/30F) + 1 bottle RL Water Wetter
Change the transmission and differential every 30k, bleed brakes once a year and replace every other, and replace Coolant every 1-2yrs.
There is only one way to prevent repair bills from stacking up, and that's to be highly motivated in preventative maintenance. Check out the "maintenance list" by the author of the Tech section of Bimmer magazine, and consider that a start.
I hope that helps, and I hope you enjoy many years of fun driving with your Bimmer!
I do have an '01 325i 5MT/ZSP European Delivery with, as of yesterday, 178,922 miles on it and completely original engine (head/block/internals). It is my year round DD.
Also, it sees temperatures from as high as 100F with 100pct humidity to as low as -15F.
For DD purposes, a 0-5W30-40 SYNTHETIC oil, changed every 5-7.5k miles depending on the average trip length, is ideal. The M54 is a strong motor, although it's actually a bit weaker than the M52TU it replaced but it should be of no consequence off the track/autocross course.
I adamantly object to the use of Dino oil in these motors, as I have yet to see a si ngle one that was fed Dino that didn't have significant sludge buildup.
Of course, M1 0w40 is the favorite here, and I have nothing bad to say about it. For the money it's a great oil.
Personally, I have gone through countless different oils and weights, in a search for keeping wear at an absolute minimum while also preventing any deposits or sludge from forming.
The only oils I have one hundred percent faith in, earned from countless miles on road and many thousands more on the track, are Redline and Royal Purple (especially the HPS/XPR mixes).
Regardless of what you choose for the sump, an OCI of no more than 5k (50pct or more city) or 7.5k (majority hwy) miles, and changing the filter every time, is crucial for these cars due to the use of hydraulic lifters + the VANOS system.
Also, regardless of oil brand, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND you do a full fluid change, and use:
Redline D4 ATF for transmission
Motul RBF600 forbrakes
Redline 75W90 ffor differential
Genuine BMW Coolant + Distilled Water (40:60 ratio is good for as low as - 25/30F) + 1 bottle RL Water Wetter
Change the transmission and differential every 30k, bleed brakes once a year and replace every other, and replace Coolant every 1-2yrs.
There is only one way to prevent repair bills from stacking up, and that's to be highly motivated in preventative maintenance. Check out the "maintenance list" by the author of the Tech section of Bimmer magazine, and consider that a start.
I hope that helps, and I hope you enjoy many years of fun driving with your Bimmer!
- Status
Similar threads
- Sticky
