Oil puddling in two cylinders of Toyota V6

[Lumberg]

2000 Camry, 1MZ-FE six cylinder, 90,000 miles. I gave it an oil change a few days ago, nothing unusual. Old oil maybe a bit dirty, but I run Castrol Syntec 0w30 so it's good oil.

So I was pulling out of a driveway and speeding up to cross three lanes of traffic and make a quick U-turn. It was wet and the tires were slipping a bit but nothing crazy. All of a sudden the car started vibrating like I had popped a tire or something. It was weird.

Anyway I continued on my u-turn, swerved a bit, tires & suspension seemed fine, so the vibration seemed then more like a miss. But it was definitely more than one cylinder. So I headed straight home, maybe 1 mile away.

I was being optimistic--pulled the timing belt cover--maybe slipped a tooth? Nope. Checked the motor mounts, nothing crazy.

Pulled all three front spark plugs. Left two (passenger side) were soaked with oil. Looking down the holes, leftmost one had a serious puddle of oil in it, middle one wet but could still see tip of piston. Driver's side plug dry.

So of course my biggest fear is a hole in a piston or broken ring. But how would the oil migrate to the next cylinder over (through the intake/exhaust?)?

Other source of oil is valve guide, but that's not usually sudden. Also seems like waaaay too much oil for that. Unless it's puddling up in the head.

The only other thing I can think of is a head gasket--thus the two adjacent cylinders thing.

I am about to go examine the manuals for the gen4 and 1MZ-FE, but I wanted to run it by you guys first. Nothing like this has ever happened to me before--sudden catastrophic failure resulting in lots of oil in the combustion chambers. It went from running fine to missing on two cylinders in an instant.

The car is drivable, but I can't imagine it'd last too long in this state--at the very least the oil level will drop and the cat will get fouled.

If the damage is to the short block, the car is a borderline write-off IMO. If it's in the head (or maybe the intake), it's probably worth fixing. Either way, unless it turns out to be something waaaay simpler that I think, I'm looking at not having a daily driver for several days.

Any comments/suggestions appreciated!

 

[caprice_2nv]

Doesn't sound good, first thing I would do is a compression test I guess, then go from there. I don't think I've heard of or seen anything like that before either. I wonder if it's possible for the intake gasket to leak oil through to the combusion chamber on that engine? Normally it's a coolant leak from an intake but oil leak could be possible.

 

[brianl703]

Is it possible that a valve cover gasket leak filled the sparkplug wells with oil, causing a misfire and when you removed the plugs the oil then dripped into the cylinders?

 

[Fester]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
Is it possible that a valve cover gasket leak filled the sparkplug wells with oil, causing a misfire and when you removed the plugs the oil then dripped into the cylinders?
Good thinking, I wonder if the whole plug was oily or just the electrode.

 

[Lumberg]

Nice observations on the spark plug wells, I should have mentioned that when taking out the plugs the tops were not oily. But yes, the spark plug tubes on that engine are oil seals.

The thing that scares me is that it was so sudden. I am steeling myself for piston/piston ring issues but again I am holding out hope.

I should also mention that the rear bank of cylinders is extremely hard to access--I have changed the plugs with a collection of extensions and swivel joints. The factory manual I believe calls for R&R of the intake air box, but it's common practice to work around that. The air box with the long runners is separate from the intake manifold proper which is the part which simply sits in the valley between the heads. I haven't pulled any of the rear plugs, but I highly doubt the engine would be drivable, or even idle, if three+ cylinders were missing.

As far as I can tell the head gasket does seal oil passages from the block to the head. Of course the more common scenario (in cars in general) is coolant leakage, but it's still possible.

Good call also on the intake gasket--I do not think the intake gasket seals oil passages. That would be an even better-case scenario.

I do indeed have a compression tester, and since I posted I thought of that. I think the next thing I will do is pop the valve cover off to see what I can see, then probably test the compression. I am also thinking of seeing if the parts store has gaskets I can eyeball for the specific locations of the various fluid passages. The factory manuals aren't too specific on that.

If there's a bad reduction in compression, does that rule out a head gasket? Could there be a failure between an oil passage and the leftmost cylinder, and a simultaneous failure in the cylinder seal between the two adjacent cylinders? Again, hope springs eternal.

I'll also check the coolant for presence of oil--the oil does not show any coolant in it on the dipstick at least.

I guess one of the big questions is, are gasket failures generally sudden?

One final note, the intake design uses Helmholtz resonance to help charge the intake pressure, but I do not know if that would cause oil from one combustion chamber to go to the next, much less only the next.

Again, any further comments appreciated.

 

[ChiTDI]

Nice observations on the spark plug wells, I should have mentioned that when taking out the plugs the tops were not oily. But yes, the spark plug tubes on that engine are oil seals.

That would be my first area to inspect. Had this happen on a 4 cyl Dodge, and it was a straightforward r&r with new "glue" and tubes from the dealer.
Hope yours is as easy and cheap.
Post what you find.

 

[Lumberg]

Well AFAIK the tubes are meant to seal oil from the valve cover area to the non-combustion area of the spark plug. So, for argument's sake, even if they were bad, the oil wouldn't enter the combustion chamber, right?

I did pop the valve cover off and I can't really see much. The cams push on shims that are on top of the valve spring area. The valve seal area is totally obscured. There isn't enough oil up there to create the amount in the combustion chamber.

In the pass. side cylinder, there is literally a puddle on the piston. I can see the reflection of the spark plug threads.

On the middle piston, I can see the top of the piston proper through a layer of carbon.

What I would really like is a borescope.

It's now dark here so I guess I'll try the compression test tomorrow, pending insight/information gained overnight. But it's not looking good.

 

[Shaman]

Total long shot, but where does the PCV or EGR valve connect to the IM? Could be a simple as on the turn oil got somewhere it shouldn't have, and oil got sucked up and spit out into those two cylinders.

 

[Lumberg]

Not a long shot at all. The PCV valve does feed into the area that's closest to those two intake runners. But I've made similar turns and accelerations many times before. I guess PCV valves can fail catastrophically. Worth checking into.

Quick question--with a compression test, how does one distinguish between a broken ring/piston and a failed head gasket?

I suppose with one, only one cylinder has low compression while with the latter, two do.

Ugh, not thinking clearly now cos this is pretty bad.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, before you knock too many years off your life expectancy, just clean the cylinder up and put in a new plug and see if everything goes away. The higher G turn has to have some factor in this in getting the oil from where it belonged to where it ended up.

Spray something in the plug hole that will wash out the oil so you don't soak the new plug.

Make sure you didn't over fill it with oil and the turn forced the sump to slosh to engulf the bottom of those pistons. Not that I can see what happened in your case as being the case ..but

The PCV thing was an interesting possibility and plausible (in this odd and unlikely occurance).

 

[kschachn]

It is rare for the tube seals to leak on that engine. On a Honda they leak all the time, but for the Toyota I've never seen a leak on a 1MZ-FE.

If they are leaking, the oil can drain down in the plug hole when you remove the plug. BUT, you will see oil all over the spark plug socket and the wire boot if there's that much oil in there.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
It is rare for the tube seals to leak on that engine. On a Honda they leak all the time, but for the Toyota I've never seen a leak on a 1MZ-FE.


LOL! I wouldn't bet on it if I were you for I've seen virtually all DOHC/SOHC with spark plug tubes where the tube seal/gasket ages, oil gets into the spark plug holes.

Lemme see: from Nissan to Mazda to Honda and Toyotas, oh and BTW: BMW too..

 

[ThirdeYe]

Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: kschachn
It is rare for the tube seals to leak on that engine. On a Honda they leak all the time, but for the Toyota I've never seen a leak on a 1MZ-FE.


LOL! I wouldn't bet on it if I were you for I've seen virtually all DOHC/SOHC with spark plug tubes where the tube seal/gasket ages, oil gets into the spark plug holes.

Lemme see: from Nissan to Mazda to Honda and Toyotas, oh and BTW: BMW too..



Yep, mine leaked too. Very easy to replace.

 

[Lumberg]

After fooling with it this morning I have very little evidence pointing to anything but a broken ring and/or piston.

Smoke comes out of the dipstick tube and oil filler caps. Car barely starts and runs, but there's a stochastic ratting from the area of the affected cylinder.

I tried sticking a magnet down in there but didn't get anything back.

Affected cylinder has no compression, other two have compression.

The car will start and after stumbling a lot will rev all the way up to 6k. It will idle for a few seconds before dying. After the rev the smoke was like a NASCAR burnout and there was a splattered puddle of black oil near the end of the tailpipe.

I suppose it could somehow be a failure in the head, but the chances are slim. I wish I had access to a borescope.

I don't think this engine is worth overhauling, and I don't think the car is worth putting a new engine into.

It's definitely not the spark plug tubes, LOL.

Any comments appreciated.

 

[Jim 5]

Originally Posted By: Lumberg
After fooling with it this morning I have very little evidence pointing to anything but a broken ring and/or piston.

Smoke comes out of the dipstick tube and oil filler caps.

Affected cylinder has no compression, other two have compression.

there was a splattered puddle of black oil near the end of the tailpipe.

I don't think this engine is worth overhauling, and I don't think the car is worth putting a new engine into.

Any comments appreciated.



I agree with your assessment. Everything points to serious piston ring blow-by.

What about a decent and inexpensive junk-yard engine?

 

[Fester]

Sounds like a good reason to go car shopping, maybe anything with four banger this time. Was this the sludge motor V6?

 

[Lumberg]

Originally Posted By: morepower
Sounds like a good reason to go car shopping, maybe anything with four banger this time. Was this the sludge motor V6?


Correct, this 1MZ-FE was manufactured in the date range published by Toyota.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: Jim 5
Originally Posted By: Lumberg
After fooling with it this morning I have very little evidence pointing to anything but a broken ring and/or piston.

Smoke comes out of the dipstick tube and oil filler caps.

Affected cylinder has no compression, other two have compression.

there was a splattered puddle of black oil near the end of the tailpipe.

I don't think this engine is worth overhauling, and I don't think the car is worth putting a new engine into.

Any comments appreciated.



I agree with your assessment. Everything points to serious piston ring blow-by.

What about a decent and inexpensive junk-yard engine?


Sounds like a broken piston compression ring(s) due to some unknown reasons.

Whatever you do now isn't gonna matter much as far as costs concerned for either way, you'll have to find a way out and it's gonna cost you. Your option would be either (a) get a used on from wreckers or (b)get it rebuild or (c) pawn it off and get another vehicle.

Also: I wouldn't bother(in this case, unless you have a lot of $$$ to burn and you are curious) tearing it apart to investigate.

Just me though...YMMV.

Q.

 

[The Critic]

If you have all oil change records, I'd take it to the Toyota dealer and explain the situation. It's very unusual for a 1MZ-FE to have problems this early--I just saw one tonight with 300k. There's a chance that you'd qualify for goodwill assistance.

 

[Lumberg]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
If you have all oil change records, I'd take it to the Toyota dealer and explain the situation. It's very unusual for a 1MZ-FE to have problems this early--I just saw one tonight with 300k. There's a chance that you'd qualify for goodwill assistance.


Thanks for the input, everybody, not just The Critic.

I learned about these "sludge monsters" on this very site but thought little of it since I use GC. However research on my part has uncovered the details of a settlement of a class-action suit brought against Toyota USA in New Orleans. I'll link to the site, which has a PDF of the actual settlement, for the edification of my fellow BITOGers.

http://oilgelsettlement.com/

It looks like if I use the dealer as the first point of contact, the chances of receiving a benefit are relatively slim. I called the toll free number late last night and will call it again today.

I suspect that old sludge was dislodged/washed off by the oil change and blocked an oil passage.

It looks like under the terms of the settlement, all I have to do is prove reasonable effort to maintain (regardless of the actions of the previous owner) and it's up to Toyota to DISprove that it's a sludge issue.

If Toyota denies my claim, I can appeal to some arbitrator in New Orleans.

Of course I'd rather the dealer just give me a new engine and that's it, but if I so choose, I can claim rental car costs, extra repair expenses, and even mental anguish. I'm not generally a litigious man, but I have been worrying about this issue for several days now, not had use of my car, and it's basically sucked. So I hope this can be resolved quickly, because I guess I feel that if I have to go to all the effort of assembling and presenting a case to an arbitrator, I expect to be compensated for my time.

I hope it never gets to that. LMK if you'd like me to follow up. This is eerily similar to the saga of a woman with a motorhome that played out on this site in the past few years.

Thanks again for the comments and support.