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Oil myths
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Originally Posted By: Garak
The main point, however, is that an oil with high AW levels and low friction modifier content is best for break in. I discussed that extensively with a formulator here. In fact, I learned how a dedicated race oil wouldn't be an appropriate break in lube, because while it should have sufficient anti-wear levels, it will be highly friction modified, too, which will be counter-productive.
Absolutely 100% agree on this!
The main point, however, is that an oil with high AW levels and low friction modifier content is best for break in. I discussed that extensively with a formulator here. In fact, I learned how a dedicated race oil wouldn't be an appropriate break in lube, because while it should have sufficient anti-wear levels, it will be highly friction modified, too, which will be counter-productive.
Absolutely 100% agree on this!
Originally Posted By: Garak
Deven might know for sure, but I'm relatively certain that RP's break in oil is a monograde, too.
RP break in oil is a conventional 5w30 with high levels of ZDDP.
Deven might know for sure, but I'm relatively certain that RP's break in oil is a monograde, too.
RP break in oil is a conventional 5w30 with high levels of ZDDP.
So with all this said about moly, I guess we can revisit Honda's factory fill and why it has so much moly if reduction in friction is not ideal for break in. I personally think they use all that moly to micro polish/smooth internal parts that are rough when viewed under a microscope.
Triple_Se7en
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Whatever Honda does, it sure is working. That's the best passenger vehicle manufacturer, per dollar spent.
Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
Whatever Honda does, it sure is working. That's the best passenger vehicle manufacturer, per dollar spent.
Having owned both I'll agree. It's clearly Toyota
Whatever Honda does, it sure is working. That's the best passenger vehicle manufacturer, per dollar spent.
Having owned both I'll agree. It's clearly Toyota
Originally Posted By: deven
RP break in oil is a conventional 5w30 with high levels of ZDDP.
There we go. I didn't think they'd bother with using a multigrade, but these days, why not? As for Honda, at very high levels, the moly is definitely AW and is of use. Those aren't small friction modification levels.
RP break in oil is a conventional 5w30 with high levels of ZDDP.
There we go. I didn't think they'd bother with using a multigrade, but these days, why not? As for Honda, at very high levels, the moly is definitely AW and is of use. Those aren't small friction modification levels.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: deven
RP break in oil is a conventional 5w30 with high levels of ZDDP.
There we go. I didn't think they'd bother with using a multigrade, but these days, why not? As for Honda, at very high levels, the moly is definitely AW and is of use. Those aren't small friction modification levels.
The question then is if they're focusing on anti wear with the high moly then are they saying that they put more importance on anti wear and less important on seating of the rings?
Originally Posted By: deven
RP break in oil is a conventional 5w30 with high levels of ZDDP.
There we go. I didn't think they'd bother with using a multigrade, but these days, why not? As for Honda, at very high levels, the moly is definitely AW and is of use. Those aren't small friction modification levels.
The question then is if they're focusing on anti wear with the high moly then are they saying that they put more importance on anti wear and less important on seating of the rings?
That's a very good question. That, we need a formulator to address. Perhaps if we're not getting the friction modification at really elevated moly levels, the ring seating isn't a problem.
Originally Posted By: Garak
That's a very good question. That, we need a formulator to address. Perhaps if we're not getting the friction modification at really elevated moly levels, the ring seating isn't a problem.
Well I've talked to Dave at Red Line about their oils and as to why the need for them to use moly at very high levels (at or above 500ppm) when their oils already have high amounts of ZDDP for anti wear. His response has always been that their oils run on the thicker side and sacrifices a little fuel economy due to this and hence using moly in high quantity as a friction modifier is to recuperate some of that fuel economy loss. So I'm pretty sure that using moly at high doses still keeps its friction modifying properties intact.
That's a very good question. That, we need a formulator to address. Perhaps if we're not getting the friction modification at really elevated moly levels, the ring seating isn't a problem.
Well I've talked to Dave at Red Line about their oils and as to why the need for them to use moly at very high levels (at or above 500ppm) when their oils already have high amounts of ZDDP for anti wear. His response has always been that their oils run on the thicker side and sacrifices a little fuel economy due to this and hence using moly in high quantity as a friction modifier is to recuperate some of that fuel economy loss. So I'm pretty sure that using moly at high doses still keeps its friction modifying properties intact.
Well, that is an interesting point.
Another "myth" i think would be that oils wth amlarge spread like 0w50 or 10w60 still shear down like crazy, is this still the case or is it a thing of the past? I get it depends a lot on the base stock and qualiy of the VII
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: Garak
That's a very good question. That, we need a formulator to address. Perhaps if we're not getting the friction modification at really elevated moly levels, the ring seating isn't a problem.
Well I've talked to Dave at Red Line about their oils and as to why the need for them to use moly at very high levels (at or above 500ppm) when their oils already have high amounts of ZDDP for anti wear. His response has always been that their oils run on the thicker side and sacrifices a little fuel economy due to this and hence using moly in high quantity as a friction modifier is to recuperate some of that fuel economy loss. So I'm pretty sure that using moly at high doses still keeps its friction modifying properties intact.
+1
As I understand it, Moly is a form of solid lubricants that basically always function as a friction modifier whenever the liquid lubricating oil in between the two rolling and/or sliding contacts goes into boundary and/or mixed lubrication regimes ... irrespective of Moly dosage.
However, at low operating temperature regimes where ZDDP/AW additives isn't activated as yet (due to operating temperatures not high enough for its activation), Moly of sufficiently high enough dosage 'may' kick-in and provide anti-wear environment temporarily .... until such time when ZDDP/AW additives within the oil are adequately activated in relation to prevailing lubricant oil operating temperatures.
JMHO.
Originally Posted By: Garak
That's a very good question. That, we need a formulator to address. Perhaps if we're not getting the friction modification at really elevated moly levels, the ring seating isn't a problem.
Well I've talked to Dave at Red Line about their oils and as to why the need for them to use moly at very high levels (at or above 500ppm) when their oils already have high amounts of ZDDP for anti wear. His response has always been that their oils run on the thicker side and sacrifices a little fuel economy due to this and hence using moly in high quantity as a friction modifier is to recuperate some of that fuel economy loss. So I'm pretty sure that using moly at high doses still keeps its friction modifying properties intact.
+1
As I understand it, Moly is a form of solid lubricants that basically always function as a friction modifier whenever the liquid lubricating oil in between the two rolling and/or sliding contacts goes into boundary and/or mixed lubrication regimes ... irrespective of Moly dosage.
However, at low operating temperature regimes where ZDDP/AW additives isn't activated as yet (due to operating temperatures not high enough for its activation), Moly of sufficiently high enough dosage 'may' kick-in and provide anti-wear environment temporarily .... until such time when ZDDP/AW additives within the oil are adequately activated in relation to prevailing lubricant oil operating temperatures.
JMHO.
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Also, friction modifiers are to help reduce parasitic loss. Is Red Line really worried about fuel economy or performance, given their bent? Of course, it's still the same thing, but talking fuel economy with respect to Red Line is a bit odd.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Also, friction modifiers are to help reduce parasitic loss. Is Red Line really worried about fuel economy or performance, given their bent? Of course, it's still the same thing, but talking fuel economy with respect to Red Line is a bit odd.
I look at it this way.
Moly, in itself, improves FE through reduction of COF.
Higher dosage of Moly in RL, probably prolongs the duration of friction reduction activity during extended OCI.
This Moly too is being consumed at activation of anti-wear properties during low operating temperature regimes.
Secondly,while improving FE by reducing COF ,particularly so in the context of transmission drives, this use of Moly may result in slight reduction of oil operating temperatures (by several degree C) and thus resulting in slightly higher operating viscosity (by several cSt).The 'parasitic' loss from this increased operating viscosity shaves off a portion of increased FE.
Couple with its built-in higher KV@40*C and KV@100*C for its 'performance' , this higher dosage of Moly in RL further improves its performance in components wear protection(through higher film thickness and operating viscosity) whilst achieving improved FE, if perceptible.
Just my 2 cents.
Also, friction modifiers are to help reduce parasitic loss. Is Red Line really worried about fuel economy or performance, given their bent? Of course, it's still the same thing, but talking fuel economy with respect to Red Line is a bit odd.
I look at it this way.
Moly, in itself, improves FE through reduction of COF.
Higher dosage of Moly in RL, probably prolongs the duration of friction reduction activity during extended OCI.
This Moly too is being consumed at activation of anti-wear properties during low operating temperature regimes.
Secondly,while improving FE by reducing COF ,particularly so in the context of transmission drives, this use of Moly may result in slight reduction of oil operating temperatures (by several degree C) and thus resulting in slightly higher operating viscosity (by several cSt).The 'parasitic' loss from this increased operating viscosity shaves off a portion of increased FE.
Couple with its built-in higher KV@40*C and KV@100*C for its 'performance' , this higher dosage of Moly in RL further improves its performance in components wear protection(through higher film thickness and operating viscosity) whilst achieving improved FE, if perceptible.
Just my 2 cents.
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Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
Whatever Honda does, it sure is working. That's the best passenger vehicle manufacturer, per dollar spent.
How do you define 'best'? I think Koeniggsegg are more 'best' than Honda, for aesthetics, performance and innovation.
Whatever Honda does, it sure is working. That's the best passenger vehicle manufacturer, per dollar spent.
How do you define 'best'? I think Koeniggsegg are more 'best' than Honda, for aesthetics, performance and innovation.
Why is it that Honda owners always think Honda is just the basolute best manufacturer ever, i drive a Ford , i love Fords, i know it's not the best car maker to ever exist
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Why is it that Honda owners always think Honda is just the basolute best manufacturer ever, i drive a Ford , i love Fords, i know it's not the best car maker to ever exist
Ford in the US, Europe and Japan are very different.
Why is it that Honda owners always think Honda is just the basolute best manufacturer ever, i drive a Ford , i love Fords, i know it's not the best car maker to ever exist
Ford in the US, Europe and Japan are very different.
Same down-under. They used to make supercharged Falcons down there. Think we could get one in the US
Honda does make nice stuff. If you buy the right package with a manual transmission, they will go many hundreds of thousands of trouble free miles with good care and periodic maintenance. But, they are not the only ones ...
Thing is they are like clothes. They fit some folks great. But never seem to fit me well (long torso). So I usually end up with European cars for the headroom and leg room...
Honda does make nice stuff. If you buy the right package with a manual transmission, they will go many hundreds of thousands of trouble free miles with good care and periodic maintenance. But, they are not the only ones ...
Thing is they are like clothes. They fit some folks great. But never seem to fit me well (long torso). So I usually end up with European cars for the headroom and leg room...
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Originally Posted By: zeng
Couple with its built-in higher KV@40*C and KV@100*C for its 'performance' , this higher dosage of Moly in RL further improves its performance in components wear protection(through higher film thickness and operating viscosity) whilst achieving improved FE, if perceptible.
I certainly can agree with that. All I meant, though, was given Red Line's target market, if it were me, I'd be advertising the lower power loss thanks to the friction modification. Sure, it's the same thing in the end, but you tailor the song to the audience.
Couple with its built-in higher KV@40*C and KV@100*C for its 'performance' , this higher dosage of Moly in RL further improves its performance in components wear protection(through higher film thickness and operating viscosity) whilst achieving improved FE, if perceptible.
I certainly can agree with that. All I meant, though, was given Red Line's target market, if it were me, I'd be advertising the lower power loss thanks to the friction modification. Sure, it's the same thing in the end, but you tailor the song to the audience.
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