i think the semantics problems is because you cant be too technical for the average person. so you have to explain it in a way that a person who is not big on motor oil can really understand.
Oil is NOT thinner when cold.
- Thread starter BlazerLT
- Start date
- Status
Is VII are added to thicken the oil up @100cSt or thin the oil down when cold?
lol @ this thread
Here's thre thread BlazerLT is talking about
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=254042&start=50
there was no misunderstanding among the people he's trying to argue with. He just doesn't understand what they're saying and wants to argue over semantics.
btw, trex, according to one of AE Haas's articles, dino oils begin as the lower number and have viscosity modifiers added to make them behave like the higher number and synthetics begin at the higher number and have modifiers to make it act like the lower number.
Here's thre thread BlazerLT is talking about
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=254042&start=50
there was no misunderstanding among the people he's trying to argue with. He just doesn't understand what they're saying and wants to argue over semantics.
pretty childish IMO, since a good number of poster on that board post here too.
btw, trex, according to one of AE Haas's articles, dino oils begin as the lower number and have viscosity modifiers added to make them behave like the higher number and synthetics begin at the higher number and have modifiers to make it act like the lower number.
Try to think of it as, the oil only thickens as much as a 5 weight when cold and thins as much as a 30 weight when hot.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Well, there's a certain "fine line" where those who do know what they're talking about and those who don't look pretty much the same.
"I use 10w-40 because it's thicker when hot."
The guy who doesn't know thinks that the high number is the hot visc ..and he's correct. He just doesn't realize that the low number isn't a "weight" and comparitive visc when cold.
The guy who does know. He leaves out the important words because he takes them for granted.
"When compared to a 10w30 at operating temp".
So both could be smackedazzez or on time if viewed one dimensionally.
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
A simple pouring test of different oil weights will show you that the thinner ones are easier to pour than thicker ones at 5 degrees.
Pretty obvious that the ones that pour easier/faster will flow easier/faster inside your engine at the same temps.
Pretty obvious that the ones that pour easier/faster will flow easier/faster inside your engine at the same temps.
Originally posted by racer12306:
so can it be concluded that an xxwyy oil has the cold flow properties of an xx weight oil and then performs "HOT" like a yy weight oil?
Thats what I tell lay person on motor oils its much easier for them to understand.
bruce
so can it be concluded that an xxwyy oil has the cold flow properties of an xx weight oil and then performs "HOT" like a yy weight oil?
Thats what I tell lay person on motor oils its much easier for them to understand.
bruce
I thought that the general opinion around here was that the 'W' stood for Winter [cold weather rating].
ok my question is. if the xW (ie 0w,5w,10w,15w) is what it flows at a certain cold temp. then why do we have all those different versions. why not just have 0w. or am I missing something. I am the first to say I dont know squat and might have missed something. please take it easy on me and not beat me too bad
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Well, it's is a 30 weight oil as far as any 30 weight oil can be. It falls into the 30 weight range at 100C. There is no other weight that any motor oil can be called that falls between 9.3 and 12.49 Cst @ 100C.
A multi visc 30 weight that has a 5w spec ...meets 5w cold spec. If it didn't, it wouldn't have a 5w on the label.
Q?: Is a 5w30 a 30 weight oil as defined by it's 100C viscosity (the identical viscosity range for any and all 30 weights)
Yes?
No?
Does a 5w30 meet 5w spec's
Yes?
No?
Would an oil that could meet any "W" spec that was not tested for "W" specs be called anything other then its 100C viscosity?
Yes?
No?
Can a 30 weight oil, of any known, or theoretical, composition, be any or all of the following, 30 weight, 20w-30, 10w30, 5w30, 0w30 at the same time??
Yes?
No?
Your honor please instruct the witness to answer the yes or no questions.
[ May 14, 2006, 04:43 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
Hey Gary!
Our version of the saying, in those ill-equipped Navy days was, "You can polish the turd, but the turd is still a turd". Tis an apt metaphor for bad rubbish. And so it was with NavAirSysCom supply's offerings to the aviation fleet in the late 70s. Man, we were thin back then!
Sorry guys
Gary's giggle gave me a flashback.
I do NOT listen to the voices!
[ May 14, 2006, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: toocrazy2yoo ]
Yeah, yeah! In Jimmy Carter's day, the ferry pilots would bring us a pair of replacement A-6Es back from depot-level repair that always had more up-gripes than anything we had aboard except of course the hangar queens, which were merely parts birds..
Our version of the saying, in those ill-equipped Navy days was, "You can polish the turd, but the turd is still a turd". Tis an apt metaphor for bad rubbish. And so it was with NavAirSysCom supply's offerings to the aviation fleet in the late 70s. Man, we were thin back then!
Sorry guys
[ May 14, 2006, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: toocrazy2yoo ]
One thing that often gets left out of these threads is: Pour Point Depressants. I didn't read all of this thread, so, maybe someone touched on it.
My question would be, do PPD's lose their effectiveness, similar perhaps to VII's "shearing"?
My question would be, do PPD's lose their effectiveness, similar perhaps to VII's "shearing"?
Titan, from what I remember, IIRC, what i think I understand and all that...
PPD's can only be used to a limited extent, and only work on some types of base stock. The problems with PPD's are completely different from those with VII's. PPD's can be more volatile, and will raise the NOACK of the oil, while long chain polymer VII's eventually shear down and cause a basic multi-vis oil to shear out of grade. Today they are much better at resisting shear than when multi-vis oil were first introduced hence a major part of why oils are so much better today. So if you start with an oil that needs too much PPD you can bow the volatility spec through the roof and the within a short while the CC spec is not met anymore in operation. The opposite happens with the VII once a great enough percentage has sheared down. This applies only to basic PPD and VII's, throw synthetics in and it is another whole ball of wax, so to speak.
Any of the formulators please correct any misstatements above!
PPD's can only be used to a limited extent, and only work on some types of base stock. The problems with PPD's are completely different from those with VII's. PPD's can be more volatile, and will raise the NOACK of the oil, while long chain polymer VII's eventually shear down and cause a basic multi-vis oil to shear out of grade. Today they are much better at resisting shear than when multi-vis oil were first introduced hence a major part of why oils are so much better today. So if you start with an oil that needs too much PPD you can bow the volatility spec through the roof and the within a short while the CC spec is not met anymore in operation. The opposite happens with the VII once a great enough percentage has sheared down. This applies only to basic PPD and VII's, throw synthetics in and it is another whole ball of wax, so to speak.
Any of the formulators please correct any misstatements above!
Yes, there is. And therein lies the rub. If it also meets the cold specs for a 0w, 5w, or 10w, then it is a 0w30, 5w30, or 10w30. It is no longer a 30wt by definition since a straight 30wt is not blended to meet those specs and is not tested against those specs.*
*There are a few notable exceptions, all synthetics: Amsoil's ACD 30wt, which used to be marketed as simply a 30wt but is now marketed as a 10w30/SAE 30. Because of the cold flow properties of the PAO base oil used, this is a straight 30wt that actually meets the cold flow specs for a 10w. And Redline's straight grade racing oils, for the same reason: the cold flow properties of the base oils used.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
The exact dodge that I expected. Concession in any form, even though surely warranted ..is just not in your vocabulary.
Thank you!
Again ..Sorry ..bad joke ..no, really ..my bad..
Gary, if you've followed my history on this forum over the last FOUR YEARS you will find that I am more than willing to admit when I'm wrong. But in this case I simply don't see anything to concede. A multi-grade Xw30 oil is not simply a 30wt that happens to meet the cold flow specs of the Xw component.
A 5w30 oil is a 5w30 oil. It was designed from the ground up as a 5w30, it was never intended to be anything but a 5w30, and barring any vis loss from shearing or thickening from oxidation and/or particulate loading in use, it will never be anything but a 5w30.
A straight 30wt is a straight 30wt. It was designed from the ground up as a 30wt, it was never intended to be anything but a 30wt, and barring any thickening from oxidation and/or particulate loading in use, it will never be anything but a 30wt. If it happens to also meet the cold flow specs of other grades because of the base oil chemistry used, that is serendipitous.
And this is my last word on the subject in this thread. Good day.
A 5w30 oil is a 5w30 oil. It was designed from the ground up as a 5w30, it was never intended to be anything but a 5w30, and barring any vis loss from shearing or thickening from oxidation and/or particulate loading in use, it will never be anything but a 5w30.
A straight 30wt is a straight 30wt. It was designed from the ground up as a 30wt, it was never intended to be anything but a 30wt, and barring any thickening from oxidation and/or particulate loading in use, it will never be anything but a 30wt. If it happens to also meet the cold flow specs of other grades because of the base oil chemistry used, that is serendipitous.
And this is my last word on the subject in this thread. Good day.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
You never answered the Yes or No questions. You, instead, and in traditional true form, expounded outside the confines of the stated questions to include things that made you correct.
No one says ...except YOU ...
"Oh ..you want to stay with multivisc fluids that have spec's of 5w for cold and "resemble" a 30 weight @ 100C. That's not a 30 weight, btw"
They say "Your manual spec's a 30 weight". Now every swinging "member" KNOWS that there are VERY few and VIRTUALLY NO automotive spec's that include straight weights ..yet some of us who are more anal tend to ignore the contemporary lexicon that is in use day in and day out.
Good day!
No one says ...except YOU ...
"Oh ..you want to stay with multivisc fluids that have spec's of 5w for cold and "resemble" a 30 weight @ 100C. That's not a 30 weight, btw"
They say "Your manual spec's a 30 weight". Now every swinging "member" KNOWS that there are VERY few and VIRTUALLY NO automotive spec's that include straight weights ..yet some of us who are more anal tend to ignore the contemporary lexicon that is in use day in and day out.
Good day!
Well, this is all that I'm trying to inject, it is a matter of definition.
Right, wrong, or otherwise, simply, this is the definition you are using:
30 weight = SAE 30 straight grade
Keep in mind the dual usage of the term "SAE 30".
It is both a viscosity grade on SAE J300 and a label term for a SAE 30 viscosity straight grade oil.
Right, wrong, or otherwise, simply, this is the definition you are using:
30 weight = SAE 30 straight grade
I believe the most common usage of the term 30 weight is to describe on oil that meets the SAE 30 grade requirements of 9.3 to 12.5 cSt at 100C.
Keep in mind the dual usage of the term "SAE 30".
It is both a viscosity grade on SAE J300 and a label term for a SAE 30 viscosity straight grade oil.
reyjay1...sounds very plausible to me. I'm betting you got it right! Thanks for taking the time...
- Status
Similar threads
