Oil Filter Testing?

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Originally Posted By: sayjac
And all that aside, I'd trust Amsoil's controlled ISO test results done in a lab, over some random guy's patch test done in his basement.
I wouldn't. Amsoil is a corporation and corporations lie. Only results done by someone who is not an Amsoil employee can be trusted to accurately rate Amsoil filtering.
 
Originally Posted By: theaveng
Originally Posted By: sayjac
And all that aside, I'd trust Amsoil's controlled ISO test results done in a lab, over some random guy's patch test done in his basement.
I wouldn't. Amsoil is a corporation and corporations lie. Only results done by someone who is not an Amsoil employee can be trusted to accurately rate Amsoil filtering.

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Originally Posted By: theaveng
Originally Posted By: sayjac
And all that aside, I'd trust Amsoil's controlled ISO test results done in a lab, over some random guy's patch test done in his basement.
I wouldn't. Amsoil is a corporation and corporations lie. Only results done by someone who is not an Amsoil employee can be trusted to accurately rate Amsoil filtering.


In today's world you can't blatantly lie and get away with it. You can rest assured that Toyota, Ford, Honda, etc, etc look at these results and if now true are sending legal lawsuit letters to Amsoil over it. Filters are big business, and no company is going to sit around and watch others lie about their products. There are laws against that if you don't know it.
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: theaveng
Originally Posted By: sayjac
And all that aside, I'd trust Amsoil's controlled ISO test results done in a lab, over some random guy's patch test done in his basement.
I wouldn't. Amsoil is a corporation and corporations lie. Only results done by someone who is not an Amsoil employee can be trusted to accurately rate Amsoil filtering.

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... +1000.
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Originally Posted By: sayjac
And all that aside, I'd trust Amsoil's controlled ISO test results done in a lab, over some random guy's patch test done in his basement.


For sure. That's why these ISO tests were invented. So all the results are apples-to-apples and there is strict control on the testing process. A real "engineer" (looking at profile) would totally understand that concept.
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac

And it's true that Amsoil compared themselves to OEM's, so it does make them look superior, it's called marketing. However, if the idea was to make the others look totally inadequate, didn't really happen. In fact many members who once wondered about the previously vague Motorcraft FL-820S efficiency rating, now have a very respectable spec of ~94% @ 20um to point to. A couple others are just as respectable.


Yep ... Amsoil actual did Motorcraft a SERVICE to show that the Motorcraft filters are actually better than what Motorcraft themselves said they were (ie, 80% @ 20 microns). Motorcraft needs to fire the guy in charge of their marketing.
 
You can LOL all you want but to trust a corporation to be honest when they speak to customers, is like trusting politicians to be honest when they speak to their customers. Every major corporation has been caught doing something deceitful. AMSoil is as honest as they, and not more so.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

Yep ... Amsoil actual did Motorcraft a SERVICE to show that the Motorcraft filters are actually better than what Motorcraft themselves said they were (ie, 80% @ 20 microns). Motorcraft needs to fire the guy in charge of their marketing.


Or maybe they have leadership that now understands the value of taking the long view. Curb the marketing team so you don't have to give half the company to the legal team to keep you from going bankrupt from warranty claims....

Perfect consistency is expensive to achieve, let alone maintain. Underrating a product doesn't cost all that much. If a Motorcraft product underperforms its promises OTOH, that could cost quite a bit more.
 
^^^I don't know about all that. I do know that on this board some members that previously wouldn't run or questioned the use of the FL820S because of it's vague spec now do so with great confidence, eg., JOD being one. Also, I'm not sure how or why anyone would be out to disprove an ISO tested efficiency spec, but I expect it wouldn't be an easy or inexpensive proposition. I really think the earlier ~80% @ 20um which lately has been eliminated had more to do with the MC being an oem, and therefore not feel the need the advertise it's efficiency spec. Don't know many if any OEM's that do. Whatever the case, imo Amsoil did a service by illuminating some of the previously unknown oem filter efficiency specs.

As for the thoughts above about Amsoils ISO filter test results somehow not being on the up and up, I suppose the guy below might also be the type to agree.

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Originally Posted By: sayjac
As for the thoughts above about Amsoils ISO filter test results somehow not being on the up and up....
Read the Royal Purple post towards Amsoil. They point-out that a lot of Amsoil's tests are either falsified, or used where not appropriate (like the 4-ball wear test).
 
Amsoil and PureOne tested their filters with the industry standard ISO 4548-12 [info source: Amsoil's website and an e-mail response from the Purolator tech/engineer department: http://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/616604995/m/937101141

Amsoil EaO:

downto 7 micron (nominal)
98.7% @ 15 microns
99.8% @ 20 microns

Purolator PureONE:

downto 5 micron (nominal)
92.8% @ 10 micron
99.2% @ 15 micron
99.9% @ 20 micron
 
Quote:
Amsoil and PureOne tested their filters with the industry standard ISO 4548-12 [info source: Amsoil's website and an e-mail response from the Purolator tech/engineer department: http://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/616604995/m/937101141

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Old news from an old post dating to 09. But NOW you're touting the industry standard ISO 4548-12 test, the exact same standard illustrated on the previous page with the more recent Amsoil test dated to 2011 after Amsoil updated its filter spec. You need to keep up the changes. Afaik the Purolator info is the same, but other than the test standard I already posted(ie., no new information), that's not related to the most recent Amsoil specs.

And even more ironic, if one clicks the link above, and then clicks on the first link in the first post (posted below) and scroll down, guess what graph now comes up? The same (most recent) 2011 OEM test posted on the previous page the you've previously disputed.
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[URL]http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/eao.aspx[/URL]
 
Sorry but I didn't follow the last comment at all (it was doublespeak). Yes the test is from 2009. So what? Amsoil is still using the same EA15k or EAO filters. I don't see any indication that they've improved since 2009 (or that their "loss" to Mobil 1 or PureOne has now turned into a win).

If you have further information to indicate Amsoil filters now beat M1-EP or PureOne filters, then subside with the doubletalk and just post the numbers. Thank you Mr. AMS fan.
 
Clearly you didn't follow, or chose not to. In any case this thread it titled oil filter testing, not proving the M1EP is better than Amsoil or vice versa.

Amsoil changed their filter spec since 09, but I'm not wasting anymore time with someone that clearly has some axe to grind against Amsoil rather than learning about true oil filter testing which really has been posted in this thread. Not worth dignifying your inane last comment.
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Clearly you didn't follow, or chose not to. In any case this thread it titled oil filter testing, not proving the M1EP is better than Amsoil or vice versa.
I am the one who started the thread, and the reason I did so was for that very purpose. I wanted to find Filter Tests and determine which company made the best filter (and then use it in my car). Right now it's looking like Amsoil is a very good filter, but not the best.

Unless you can show me a test where they came-out on top? But instead you've engaged in attacking another poster's intelligence. Quote: You are "
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... You need to keep up the changes...
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.....". A cheap method of discussion. If you had a point to make, you could have done it without insinuating you think I am an idiot.
 
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Finally read through the entire thread. The FTC keeps filter companies honest through enforcement of what they advertise. MC likely doesnt adervtise efficiency because that allows them to switch suppliers without changing packaging. Amsoil filters are pretty good, just difficult to buy and overpriced. The Ultra filter has no peer when price is considered, it is as good or better than all the high end filters at half the price, that makes it a bargain.
 
What most everyone misses in this debate is that the fitlers, while important, do not greatly affect the protection of an engine when the efficiency passes a minimum reasonable threshold.

The normal variation of wear rates far overshadows the residual effects of filter efficiency.

Lab testing can easily show that some filters are "better" performers than others, in both single-pass and multi-pass applications.
Real world UOA data and teardown analysis don't mimic the lab testing for two simple reasons:
1) filters are not the only thing that controls wear
2) once a satisfactory level of filtration is attained, "more" does not manifest into "better", because once a system is "clean enough" anything above that is unusable excess in a typical application

Yes - I agree that a premium filter is likely going to do a "better" job of removing particulate. But the plain fact is that most any reasonable filter is more than up to the task. While better filtration is desirable at the conceptual level, it just does not reveal itself as the greatest player on the field, when the game is actually in play.

Let me be very specific: I am not saying there isn't a difference between filter abilities; I'm saying that different filtration efficiencies don't shift the wear rates enough to be noticed in the real world. That is a very important distinction.

They ALL filter more than well enough to provide the desired outcome, and the small (minute) differences are meaningless, because normal variation is larger than the effects of the fitlers. Normal wear variance outpaces the statistical noise of filtration, when compared/contrasted fairly into a situation of the intended OEM specifications. If you don't look at this in context, and use data, your debate is just plain silly.

The topic of filtration rides alongside that of premium lubes. High-end products typically will not distinguish themselves in performance delta until the situation would manifest into a circumstance that a "normal" product were overwhelmed. If one greatly extended the OCI, then filtration would become more important. And nowhere in this debate does anyone ever acknolwedge that. And I would personally favor fitler CAPACITY over efficiency beyond the minimum threshold requirement. That makes the filter last much longer. As long as it can "clean" to a safe level, I want it to last LONGER, which improves the ROI. Most normal lubes can easily go 15k miles if the conditions are right; most normal filters can go along for that ride just as easily. Wear rates drop to practically zero after the lube anti-wear layer has been established, even when inching towards 15k miles of OCI. If the wear is at/near zero, how much "better" can a premium filter make something? You cannot improve upon "no wear" by using a "better" product!

I can show thousands of UOAs that back up my statements; I have both macro and micro data to prove it (you can start by reading over my article about UOA normalcy). I challenge anyone to show me either clinical lab or controlled real-world testing that contradicts my claim.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
1) filters are not the oil thing that control wear

I believe that this should read:
1) filters are the 'oil thing' that controls wear to a limited extent

: )
 
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