Oil "expected usage" question

[randomhero439]

So after doing lots of research on the 5w-20/0w-20 oils, i have a thought

The oil recommendation from the factory is based on expected car usage. Lets look at Hondas.
-The S2000 is recommended for 10w30 or 5w-40 when Honda is pushing 5w-20 on all other cars. Honda designed a sports car and expected it to be used like a sports car, hence the oil is spec'd for a higher weight
-The 2006-2011 Civic Si was spec'd for 5w30 when Honda was starting the push for 0w-20. Obviously expecting if you buy a Civic Si, your gonna drive it hard.
-One that is MORE obvious is the RSX specification. The normal RSX is specified for 5w-20/0w-20, but only the Type-S model was specified for 5w30. Maybe Honda was expecting that since the driver opted for the Type-S, sportier model, the engine would be abused more.
-The recent Mustang GT is spec'd for 5w-20, but the "Track Pack" model is specified for 5w-50. The cars have identical engines, yet the "expected usage" is different.

So with my Accord, its spec'd for 5w-20. However I do not plan to use it how Honda expects it to be used (as a commuter car). I do a significant amount of racing in it, so therefore the expected usage has changed. Does that mean my car (with me driving) should be spec'd for a 30 grade? Even a 40 grade like the S2000? Put yourself in my shoes. If you autocrossed this car at 10+ events per season in 80-90F weather, what weight oil would you use? Pennzoil Ultra 10w30 has a HTHS of 3.3, which is the highest i can find for a 30 grade "Walmart" oil. The obvious choice here would be Redline 5w-20 HTHS 3.3, but that is double the cost of PU.

 

[Lead Shoes]

Unless you are going to flog your stock Honda's like built cars (more than I/H/E) use the recommended weight or what the engine builder specifies.

I have a 200 WHP b17a1 in the works, with 12:5:1 CR on E85 and skunk2 pro2 cams the builder recommended 10w30 in the summer 5/0w30 in the winter (it will never drive in snow). He specifically mentioned RP/Redline/Amsoil for the 10w30's and said for the first 10k no synthetic. Not sure where he bases those recommendations off but he has 20 years experience and a lot of time spent on the B/D/K/J series motors.

I'm going to stick to 10w30 Redline when I hit 9500rpms on my b17a1 block/ITR head build; looking forward to a season of low/mid 13's (when I figure out the clutch and suspension point for launch)/ at worst it will be low 14's on the 1/4.

 

[skyship]

Very interesting post. Race use is a complicated game in oil terms because if you use too thick an oil in some engines the reduction in flow rate can increase the oil temperature. Formula 1 cars use light oils and need a rebuild every few races, but most normal sport cars do use a heavier grade than normal, but it's best to check with the manufacturer and a type specific forum for oil ideas.
I sometimes point out that Redline is a bad long OCI oil because it lacks detergents and suffers a premature TBN drop, BUT it does have a lot of anti wear additives that are good for race engines, so the name makes sense.
The oil viscosity should be selected partly based on oil pressure and temperature data at a given rpm and there might be a graph or two in the manual as you need a different oil in summer to winter.

 

[Lead Shoes]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

He has no actual experience with any Honda motor, OR YOUR J30A1; just a lot of opinions to up that post count (hes the new CarNoobie)

There are only a few of us active Honda enthusiasts on here, choose the advise wisely.

If you need more answers search Honda-Tech or PM me for useful threads on the J30 for track use.

 

[randomhero439]

Originally Posted By: Brenden
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

He has no actual experience with any Honda motor, OR YOUR J30A1; just a lot of opinions to up that post count (hes the new CarNoobie)

There are only a few of us active Honda enthusiasts on here, choose the advise wisely.

If you need more answers search Honda-Tech or PM me for useful threads on the J30 for track use.


J30A4

significant power increase, car put down 224whp with a CAI and catback

I had a dude that road races his V6 Accord recommend Castrol GTX 10w-40, then went on to advise me not to use synthetic oil. Interesting.

Skyship - Redline would be optimal as it maintains the 20 grade viscosity, yet provides a HTHS of 3.3! However "perfect" a combination this may be, its also a $60 oil change vs a $32 oil change. F1 cars use a very light oil to squeeze out the extra HP of the engine. Like you said, the engine gets rebuilt so wear isnt an issue. Actually most F1 cars have 2 engines that are on a rotation. The used engine gets rebuilt, while the fresh engine is installed for the next race.

I look forward to more responses

To word the question clearer. -Would my Accord get the same 5w-20 spec if it was marketed as a sports car and the "expected usage" was brutal and abusive like i plan to drive it?

 

[Lead Shoes]

OOOOOOOOOOOO a j30a4 0.0

Too bad the car weighs so much

I have seen one in a Integra (dc2), couldn't even clear the hood but made 500 whp with a .48 turbo.

You ever do a UOA on 5w20/5w30 to see what happens with that much track use?

It is mostly user specific on the weight required, my experience is 80% in the D/B series motors.

They would likely recommend a 30wt for some headroom if you romp on it if it were set as a high performance model.

$30 extra on an oil change isn't a [censored] in the pot compared to the money I have in my b17 block alone.

 

[randomhero439]

Originally Posted By: Brenden
OOOOOOOOOOOO a j30a4 0.0

Too bad the car weighs so much

I have seen one in a Integra (dc2), couldn't even clear the hood but made 500 whp with a .48 turbo.

You ever do a UOA on 5w20/5w30 to see what happens with that much track use?

It is mostly user specific on the weight required, my experience is 80% in the D/B series motors.

$30 extra on an oil change isn't a [censored] in the pot compared to the money I have in my block alone.


I think i might dump the 5w-20 in it before i take a road trip. I beat the [censored] out of it the other night. Hit the limiter alot lol. Only 2k miles on the oil, but i REALLY wana get a UOA on it. I think ill do that! I guess expect a UOA in the next week or so. Its not too heavy, only 3200lbs which isnt bad for a mid-size

 

[Lead Shoes]

I have a lubricheck oil monitor that I got on kickstarter a year ago, my 5w20 only hits 4 or 10 on the oil life after 4k miles and I take my b18b to 8k daily; it's still white as a ghost under the valve cover.

Still changing it in the Spring (about 6k miles regardless)\\

3200 curb weight is a lot to swallow compared to what I deal with in the golden era Honda's I buy.

 

[randomhero439]

Originally Posted By: Brenden
I have a lubricheck oil monitor that I got on kickstarter a year ago, my 5w20 only hits 4 or 10 on the oil life after 4k miles and I take my b18b to 8k daily; it's still white as a ghost under the valve cover.

Still changing it in the Spring (about 6k miles regardless)\\

3200 curb weight is a lot to swallow compared to what I deal with in the golden era Honda's I buy.


So 10 would be you have alot of metal in your oil?

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: randomhero439
Originally Posted By: Brenden
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

He has no actual experience with any Honda motor, OR YOUR J30A1; just a lot of opinions to up that post count (hes the new CarNoobie)

There are only a few of us active Honda enthusiasts on here, choose the advise wisely.

If you need more answers search Honda-Tech or PM me for useful threads on the J30 for track use.


J30A4

significant power increase, car put down 224whp with a CAI and catback

I had a dude that road races his V6 Accord recommend Castrol GTX 10w-40, then went on to advise me not to use synthetic oil. Interesting.

Skyship - Redline would be optimal as it maintains the 20 grade viscosity, yet provides a HTHS of 3.3! However "perfect" a combination this may be, its also a $60 oil change vs a $32 oil change. F1 cars use a very light oil to squeeze out the extra HP of the engine. Like you said, the engine gets rebuilt so wear isnt an issue. Actually most F1 cars have 2 engines that are on a rotation. The used engine gets rebuilt, while the fresh engine is installed for the next race.

I look forward to more responses

To word the question clearer. -Would my Accord get the same 5w-20 spec if it was marketed as a sports car and the "expected usage" was brutal and abusive like i plan to drive it?


Castrol GTX 10/40 is a good conventional oil, but I would not use it in anything with a serious turbo and it's short on additives for race use. A Porsche turbo can fry GTX fairly quickly causing the oil feed line to varnish until the flow rate is low enough to cause the bearings to fail. I see about one blown turbo a year because some trainee in a dealer used GTX and not Edge.
Many Germans drive their cars nearly as hard late at night on the autobahn as a race track and they nearly all use HC or full synthetic oils in their high performance cars. Most use LM Synthoil, Castrol Edge, Mobil 1, Shell Helix or Valvoline and 5w40 is the most popular grade even in cars designed for 0 or 5/30.
To answer the last part of your question, if a US or Japanese manufacturer selling Sports cars recommends an oil it might well not be too influenced by the CAFE regs, as they know such cars get driven harder and the owners tend to cross check information about oil grades. If the normal block uses X/20 and they say use an X/30 in the sports version that will probably be correct, but a quick check of the oil finder in the UK should confirm it. LM have the Honda Civic 2.2 listed for a variety of 5w30 and 5w40 HC synthetics, but they don't list the race pack versions.

 

[randomhero439]

^^^ I just had a look at Mobil 1 UK, and all the Ford and Hondas are spec'd for 0w-30. The plot thickens...

 

[LeakySeals]

You know the answer better than most of us. I can't put myself in your shoes without knowing how much you value not having to rebuild your engine. I'm probably still old school here, but the thin oil under all conditions trend is still young, I don't know what will happen if you try racing with thin OTC oil in a mostly stock engine. If you check the NASCAR folks they are using thin. But they rebuild their engines all the time, use special oils we can't acquire or afford, etc. I don't think they use something in a 5qt jug at walmart. How bad you want to win? Run a peppy thin oil that loses its film strength shearing down under high revs and boom? I don't know that will happen, but is a few HP gain worth finding out? So..if it were me racing a mostly stock engine I would use M1 0w40. A full syn easy to acquire. Reasonably thin for cold startups yet thick(er) under racing conditions. Cant get a jug at Walmart, but still reasonably priced by the quart.

 

[aquariuscsm]

On your S2000,I`d use the thickest oil recommended via fsm,which sounds like a 40 weight. Walmart has 5W40 Synpower and M1 0W40 for around $6 a quart. They also have M1 5W40 in the 5 quart jugs.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: randomhero439
If you autocrossed this car at 10+ events per season in 80-90F weather, what weight oil would you use? Pennzoil Ultra 10w30 has a HTHS of 3.3, which is the highest i can find for a 30 grade "Walmart" oil. The obvious choice here would be Redline 5w-20 HTHS 3.3, but that is double the cost of PU.


For autocrossing, 5w20 is still probably OK. When you start a run, the oil may be at 150F, and during a 1-minute run, it may get up to 170F. Then you get back in line and it has 20 minutes to cool down before the next run. At these kinds of temperatures a 20-weight oil is going to have much higher viscosity than it does at the 300F temperature where the HTHS measurement is taken, and is going to yield a much thicker oil film because of it. If you were doing track days where the engine is being run at high rpm continuously for 20-30 minutes with temperatures close to 300F, then you would need to consider heavier oils.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: randomhero439
I beat the [censored] out of it the other night. Hit the limiter alot lol.


Not intending to put you on the spot or call you out, but can you describe exactly what you did with your car that qualifies as "beat the [censored] out of it"? How long did you go how fast, or how many times did you go through the gears, or what revs did you run the engine to, or how many times did you hit the rev limiter?

I'm trying to get a feel for how hard a car can really be driven on public roads before the police become an issue. In my Camaro, I can have fun for about 12 seconds before I'm going 90 mph at the top of 3rd gear. Nothing I can do on the street causes me concern about engine oiling.

 

[Doog]

Since you track the car I would just run PP or PU 5w30 and be done with it. OR I would run a 5w20 and change every 4000 miles.

 

[randomhero439]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: randomhero439
I beat the [censored] out of it the other night. Hit the limiter alot lol.


Not intending to put you on the spot or call you out, but can you describe exactly what you did with your car that qualifies as "beat the [censored] out of it"? How long did you go how fast, or how many times did you go through the gears, or what revs did you run the engine to, or how many times did you hit the rev limiter?

I'm trying to get a feel for how hard a car can really be driven on public roads before the police become an issue. In my Camaro, I can have fun for about 12 seconds before I'm going 90 mph at the top of 3rd gear. Nothing I can do on the street causes me concern about engine oiling.


I did a few 20-120mph races on a empty highway with a Genesis Coupe. Engine cuts out at 7200rpm, idk probably like bounced off it 10 times. The limiter part was just me being an idiot, that doesnt happen on the regular. But the drag racing does. Usually a few races a week on, and then an autocross event every few weeks.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Very interesting post. Race use is a complicated game in oil terms because if you use too thick an oil in some engines the reduction in flow rate can increase the oil temperature. Formula 1 cars use light oils and need a rebuild every few races, but most normal sport cars do use a heavier grade than normal, but it's best to check with the manufacturer and a type specific forum for oil ideas.
I sometimes point out that Redline is a bad long OCI oil because it lacks detergents and suffers a premature TBN drop, BUT it does have a lot of anti wear additives that are good for race engines, so the name makes sense.
The oil viscosity should be selected partly based on oil pressure and temperature data at a given rpm and there might be a graph or two in the manual as you need a different oil in summer to winter.


sounds great.. like a great pile of [censored].

shyship is a union of arcographite-carnoobie-chevyboi

arco's well designed but totally wrong posts
carnoobie's trolling fail
chevyboy's blogging and constant posts.

so can we just call him arconoobboy.

so Just do what I do and use ignore.

 

[rrounds]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: randomhero439
If you autocrossed this car at 10+ events per season in 80-90F weather, what weight oil would you use? Pennzoil Ultra 10w30 has a HTHS of 3.3, which is the highest i can find for a 30 grade "Walmart" oil. The obvious choice here would be Redline 5w-20 HTHS 3.3, but that is double the cost of PU.


For autocrossing, 5w20 is still probably OK. When you start a run, the oil may be at 150F, and during a 1-minute run, it may get up to 170F. Then you get back in line and it has 20 minutes to cool down before the next run. At these kinds of temperatures a 20-weight oil is going to have much higher viscosity than it does at the 300F temperature where the HTHS measurement is taken, and is going to yield a much thicker oil film because of it. If you were doing track days where the engine is being run at high rpm continuously for 20-30 minutes with temperatures close to 300F, then you would need to consider heavier oils.

+1
Autocross and drag racing does not put much heat into the oil. 20+ minutes of hard road racing on a longer track can put to much heat into a thin oil and you will have to consider a 30w or 40w oil. But to "know" if your oil is getting to hot you should have a oil temp gauge installed.

 

[randomhero439]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: randomhero439
If you autocrossed this car at 10+ events per season in 80-90F weather, what weight oil would you use? Pennzoil Ultra 10w30 has a HTHS of 3.3, which is the highest i can find for a 30 grade "Walmart" oil. The obvious choice here would be Redline 5w-20 HTHS 3.3, but that is double the cost of PU.


For autocrossing, 5w20 is still probably OK. When you start a run, the oil may be at 150F, and during a 1-minute run, it may get up to 170F. Then you get back in line and it has 20 minutes to cool down before the next run. At these kinds of temperatures a 20-weight oil is going to have much higher viscosity than it does at the 300F temperature where the HTHS measurement is taken, and is going to yield a much thicker oil film because of it. If you were doing track days where the engine is being run at high rpm continuously for 20-30 minutes with temperatures close to 300F, then you would need to consider heavier oils.


170F... all the research ive done on autocross oil temps indicate they are mostly around 240F+ while on track... In some cases i would think that the oil temp for autocross would be higher because of the reduced air flow at lower speeds