Oil discussion.... any truth to this

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
20
Location
Chicago
I was at a car forum having a discussion about oil when someone posted this.. any truth to it.

"If you are running a 5w30 versus a 0W-30, those 2 oils start from different base stocks of different weights. Multi-weight oils are basically oils that have polymers attached to them.

I believe in race applications, most of the time they don't use multi-weight oil because they don't want polymer in the engine (I could be wrong about this though...) for example, race motors might use a 30W oil (non-multiweight).

When COLD the polymers are coiled and the oil will behave basically like its base oil (first "W" number).

When HOT the polymers uncoil, making the oil thicker and it protects SIMILARLY to an oil of weight noted after the dash.

So a 0w30 protects like a 0W (non-multiweight oil) when cold, and protects like a 30W oil when hot.

In order to make a bigger spread between the first "W" number and the second number (after the dash), they need to add more polymer.

So basically... IMO it is better to use an oil that has a tighter spread. No engine benefits from having more polymer in the oil, so you should pick an oil that is closest to the weight you need. Since polymers can shear off their oil molecules, there's a possibility for them to burn up and make deposits in the engine...

That is why I'd rather put a 5w30 in the car (less spread between the numbers) than a 0W-30...

This is just what I choose to believe, not that I think you're going to be {poof-gone!} if you use a 0W- but I'd rather have a little more protection when cold.

I know they should theoretically protect the same, but the 5w30 will have less polymer in it, and will also be a bit heavier when cold, preventing some of that burn off when the engine is cold.


You can have your opinions about the weight of the oil you choose. But my research has led me to believe that you should pick a multi-weight oil with the minimum spread that fits your application."

ADMIN COMMENT: Folks, please use caution in cutting and pasting from other sources. Ultimately, you're responsible for what you bring in here. It's OK Derek, we'll save the Cat-o-nine-tails for next time. . .
 
Last edited by a moderator:
In general, he is correct, especially with conventional oil. Synthetics need less VII (polymer) to achieve a multi-weight function. The less VII in the oil, the more stable.

I do believe, though, that all 0W30 oils are at least semi-synthetic.

The "0" means that the oil flows like a zero weight oil when very cold, but has the viscosity of a 30wt oil when at 100C.
ETA: The oil will still be thicker when cold, and thinner when hot. Not the other way around as many believe.
 
Last edited:
It's just a matter of how oil vs. temp. works. Cold oil is thicker than when hot. A 0W oil (in theory) will be thinner at a very cold temp than a 5W or 10W. This makes it easy to pump. This can be seen in the oil data sheets @ 40C and 100C temps.
 
It also depends on how you define 'cold'. For example, GC 0w30 may be thicker at 40 or even 0 deg. C than some other 5w30. But at negative 40 deg. C, GC 0w30 will be thinner than some other 5w30.
 
Last edited:
Polymers have come a long way from what was used in the 1st multigrade oils, where much of the worn polymer deposits stories come from. Most engines will benefit more from a multi-visc oil vs. single weight, despite any supposed problem with added polymer, IMO. Sheared polymer isn't completly dead either, there have been tests that show some antiwear ability from it's presence. I do agree though that too much of anything is not a good thing.
 
Current polymer chemistry is indeed better than in the past but there is a SERIOUS issue currently with aromatics damage of motor oils going unreported by MOST labs in automotive testing. A more shear stable VII and other adds improve resistance to this but it costs a lot to make that kind of motor oil.

Please keep cursing to a minimum, hidden or not. I want my teenage girls to feel comfortable reading here.

I did not participate in founding this board to allow it to decline to that level as many on the internet have.

Appreciate your understanding.

Terry
 
sorry didnt notice the curse word.... It was a copy and paste from another forum.


Thanks for your input Terry!
 
There, I think we got that fixed. Did I miss any?

Derek, there are some pretty serious problems with that. It seems to show a half-baked understanding of what's going on, and a lot of supposition and confusion. Consider some of the cutting edge, advanced 0w30 oils. In general, these will depend in large part upon the characteristics of the base oil to achieve multi-grade characteristics, not so much on polymer VIIs (perhaps not at all). In on instance (GC) also, it appears that the VII used are "exotic" compounds probably not subject to the claimed failings of "polymers" at all (or very little).

Thanks Terry, sorry I didn't catch that earlier.
 
Quote:


I want my teenage girls to feel comfortable reading here.




There are teenage girls reading BITOG?
banana.gif
thumbsup.gif
welcome.gif
 
Yeah that's a tough read and tough to decipher the half-baked logic. It's like he has 20% of the knowledge trying to make up a 100% answer.

I don't have a ton of time to address all the points but the most important missed point is that synthetic 0w30 may not even need any VII's. It is good to avoid VII's, but unless you know a little more about the oil in question you can't really base the decision on SAE viscosity spread alone.
 
Quote:



Please keep cursing to a minimum, hidden or not. I want my teenage girls to feel comfortable reading here.

Terry




I can just imagine when the dating starts. Some poor kid is going to be grilled by a teenage girl about engine maintenance and oil selection. "Uh, don't tell me you have a Fram filter in this car..". "When was the last time you changed the oil ? Have you even checked the oil lately ? You don't even know how to check the oil, do you ?" (Silent thoughts : 'why did I ever agree to go out with this guy ? What was I thinking ?")
 
Quote:



I can just imagine when the dating starts. Some poor kid is going to be grilled by a teenage girl about engine maintenance and oil selection. "Uh, don't tell me you have a Fram filter in this car..". "When was the last time you changed the oil ? Have you even checked the oil lately ? You don't even know how to check the oil, do you ?" (Silent thoughts : 'why did I ever agree to go out with this guy ? What was I thinking ?")




And that's after he went inside and met Terry and got the same grilling.
bop.gif
 
Last edited:
Quote:


In order to make a bigger spread between the first "W" number and the second number (after the dash), they need to add more polymer.

So basically... IMO it is better to use an oil that has a tighter spread. No engine benefits from having more polymer in the oil, so you should pick an oil that is closest to the weight you need. Since polymers can shear off their oil molecules, there's a possibility for them to burn up and make deposits in the engine...

That is why I'd rather put a 5w30 in the car (less spread between the numbers) than a 0W-30...





At it's best, the SAE motor oil viscosity labeling system is clumsy to work with, and to look at xW-xx and try to comment on the amount of VI improvers is like having a gypsy read the lines in the palm of your hand!

0W-30's are most often a GRP III and other synthetic or a blend of primarily Grp IV and other synthetics that have very high VI indexes and use no or very little VI improver.

Amount of VI improver per viscosity grade from a formulator who frequently posts here:

5w30 about 6% VI
10W-30 about 5% VI
10W-40 about 9% VI
15W-40 about 5% VI

The VI improver boosts the 100C viscosity of the base oils & add pack anywhere from 2 - 5 cSt at 100C, depending on the grade.

So, trying to decipher "the spread" in xW-xx is a loosing proposition!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom